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  #31  
Old 04 Oct 04, 21:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfe Tone
Well I don't live in the British Isles so couldn't say for sure.

But there was certainly a number of different Celtic political entities spread throughout Britain and Ireland say circa 100 B.C.

I am sure there were links between them all that are now lost to us.

The Celts of Ireland were however of a different linguistic root to those of Britain. The Irish speak ''Q Celtic'' and the Welsh ''P Celtic'', so I presume the Celts of Britain spoke the same as them.
Yeah, Welsh is from the Brythonic family, and Irish Gaelic from the Goidelic family.
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  #32  
Old 04 Oct 04, 21:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17poundr
Yes, but the Gauls called them selves something like Gallia, which is the Roman version of the pronunciation, shurely the Irish celts who certainly were in contact with the Brittany and Normandy coasts for trade, would have called them by a similar word, and maybe thinking they were the only 'foreign' people they knew, the word gall, came from this???
Yes, the enigmatic Picts (who I dont believe just died off, more like were descimated but many just bred into the celtic peoples).
You do know that modern Scots came from Ireland dont you?
the originals (People like the southern Celts of modern England, Wales ect), only came after stonehenge, but were concuered by Irish celts who invaded.
Lets face it the celts and the Gaulls, who were just french celts.
Combined had a much larger community, and a sophisticated system of trade, and arts.
If they wouldnt have been so fragmented, and got it together, they would have crushed Rome, before it got too strong with ease, but they werent into this kind of thinking, more into tribal war...
But the enigmatic relics in scotland some 10 000 years old, merit discussion. For example they found stone objects that depicted the platonic solids from this era! Small things, like you get in classrooms today.
Also they have old castles, where the stone walls have been melted!
They tried a reconstruction, and managed to melt about a couple of cubic feet here and there with giant bonfires, nobody nows how they did it some five thousand years ago!
I have been in western Scotland and it is a special place, you can hop along the islands, very close to ireland!
Well you do have to sail a bit!
Still, you can see the same spiral motifs in the book of kells as in ten thousand year old pictish stone carvings!
Go figure...
The answer lies in Tir Na Nogh!

In fact there were very many Gallic/Celtic tribes through Europe. Some historians believe that the first Celts came from the Volga River valley in present-day Russia, while others place their origins with the Halstatt Culture of present-day Austria. Within France, there were several tribes, including the Aedui (Vercingetorix' tribe, I believe), the Boii, the Veii, etc.) The Romans were so fearful of the little known tribes of Ireland (Hibernia to them) that they dismissed all thought of an invasion. Though they initially made incursions into Scotland, they resolved also to refrain from further incursions there, instead building Hadrian's Wall.
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  #33  
Old 04 Oct 04, 21:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Williams
Since I am 1/4 Welsh any Celtic info is of interest to me. Perhaps a thread dedicated to more celtic topics?............
If you have not done so, Read John Davies' "A History of Wales" - it is superb!!
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  #34  
Old 04 Oct 04, 21:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17poundr
Sorry got completely carried away.
So, any answers to my original questions?

Does the word' Battalion', come from the medieval english formation of bowmen known as a 'battle?'...

how about the navy's Aye, aye?

Where does the word Sir, come from?
(I know it has something to do with knighthood...)

A teaser,
do you know what the ww2 era brit military slang term 'Stonk' stands for???

Anybody???
Working on 'battalion' should have it in a few days.
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  #35  
Old 04 Oct 04, 21:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17poundr
Sorry got completely carried away.
So, any answers to my original questions?

Does the word' Battalion', come from the medieval english formation of bowmen known as a 'battle?'...

how about the navy's Aye, aye?

Where does the word Sir, come from?
(I know it has something to do with knighthood...)

A teaser,
do you know what the ww2 era brit military slang term 'Stonk' stands for???

Anybody???

There is a definite constraint that forecloses on the use of the word Sir or sir as a knighthood title bestowed under Byzantine Tradition. At a minimum, that constraint rests in language.



Two purposes are served in the usage of the word Sir or sir: One is to convey respect and recognition to the person addressed. The other is for the word to be granted as a title of distinction in acknowledgment of that respect and recognition.



Various societies adopt words that are specific to their language, in order to achieve the same purpose. The Spanish, for example, use the word Don (from the Latin dominus that means master); whereas, the English use Sir or sir (rooted in the Latin senex that means aged or old, and from which the words senator, senior, senile are derived). Note that the Latin senex finds its origin in the Greek ένος—enos (which means aged, dated or year, and where, if the letter ε or e is omitted, the remaining νος—nos or νέος—neos means new) from which the Latin annus derives. Furthermore, the English word Sir or sir has its root in sire (a respectful form of address toward an elder) that is also rooted in senior, senex, and enos. Continuity is evident from English to Latin to Greek.



In both a contextual and a definitive sense, the word nearest to Sir or sir in Hellenistic Byzantine usage is Κύριος or κύριος (Kyrios or kyrios means Lord or lord as well as Master or master) and, for example, is found in Scripture in Mark 9:24. It signifies a person of authority and power. From it is derived the Latin curia of the Roman Church, and also the word church itself: Κυριακός Οίκος means the Lord’s House. There is a linguistic abbreviation of Kyrios or kyrios rendered as Κυρ- or κυρ- and as a prefix to the person’s name. Both the full and abbreviated forms are in great use in contemporary Greek. With a capital K it denotes very high esteem and respect for the person addressed. Yet, it does not suggest a grant of title. In more probability it may denote an assignment in high office. The lower case k application equates to the English language Mr. and thus is in very frequent use.



CONCLUSION: It is an aimless stretch to attempt linkage between the words Sir and Κυρ- despite their phonetic similarity: Their distinct etymology does not support the connection. In addition, the cultural nuances in each domain defy undue blending of long established traditions. Each culture may grant its own titles, but not those of another culture. It remains therefore, that usage of the appellation Sir or sir in a Hellenistic Byzantine environment is justifiable only as a term of deference and respect for a person but never as a grant of title in knighthood or nobility.
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  #36  
Old 04 Oct 04, 22:07
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Wow, much more interest in this than I would have thought.
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  #37  
Old 05 Oct 04, 14:56
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Wow! Exellent info! Truly first class.
Another question is where does the classic cavalry word 'Charge' come from?
Also the originally naval word of Squadron, it sounds like a Latin based word, am I right?
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  #38  
Old 05 Oct 04, 15:15
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LANYARD
SYLLABICATION: lan·yard
PRONUNCIATION:
VARIANT FORMS: also lan·iard
NOUN: 1. Nautical A short rope or gasket used for fastening something or securing rigging.
2. A cord worn around the neck for carrying something, such as a knife or whistle.
3. A cord with a hook at one end used to fire a cannon.
ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps alteration (influenced by yard1, spar) of Middle English lainere, strap, from Old French laniere, from lasne, perhaps alteration (influenced by las, string) of *nasle, lace, of Germanic origin.
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Old 05 Oct 04, 15:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17poundr
Wow! Exellent info! Truly first class.
Another question is where does the classic cavalry word 'Charge' come from?
Also the originally naval word of Squadron, it sounds like a Latin based word, am I right?
I believe the word "charge" originates from Roman times. Early light cavalry (like that of the Roman army) was typically used to scout and skirmish and to cut down retreating infantry. Heavy cavalry like the Byzantine Cataphract were used as shock troops, to charge the main body of the enemy and decide the outcome of the battle.

squadron: \Squad"ron\, n. [F. escadron, formerly also esquadron, or It. squadrone. See Squad.] 1. Primarily, a square; hence, a square body of troops; a body of troops drawn up in a square. [R.]


squad: \Squad\, n. [F. escouade, fr. Sp. escuadra, or It. squadra, (assumed) LL. exquadrare to square; L. ex + quadra a square. See Square.] 1. (Mil.) A small party of men assembled for drill, inspection, or other purposes.

2. Hence, any small party.
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  #40  
Old 05 Oct 04, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17poundr
Wow! Exellent info! Truly first class.
Another question is where does the classic cavalry word 'Charge' come from?
Also the originally naval word of Squadron, it sounds like a Latin based word, am I right?
Charge
c.1225, from Old French chargier "load, burden," from Late Latin carricare "to load a wagon, cart," from Latin carrus "wagon" (see car). Meaning "responsibility, burden" is c.1340 (cf. take charge, 1389; in charge, 1513), which progressed to "pecuniary burden, cost" (1460), and then to "price demanded for service or goods" (1514). Legal sense of "accusation" is 1477; earlier "injunction, order" (1380s). Sense of "rush in to attack" is 1568, perhaps through earlier meaning of "load a weapon" (1541). Electrical sense is from 1767. Slang meaning "thrill, kick" (Amer.Eng.) is from 1951. Charger "horse ridden by officer in the field" is from 1762. Chargé d'affairs was borrowed from Fr. 1767.

Squadron
1562, from Italian squadrone, augmentative of squadra, "battalion".
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  #41  
Old 06 Oct 04, 03:29
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tank: originally a deception term used by the British to conceal the introduction of the first AFV's in WWI. Their manufacture was attributed to water tank works, and the finished product shipped to the front as "tanks". Now used universally as a term for AFV's.

Petard: an early form of satchel charge which was carried up to and deposited in front of a wall or gate to blast an opening. Notorious for unreliable and often early detonation, hence the origin of the expression "hoist by his own petard," meaning "blew himself up".

STRAC: an Army acronym for the revised forces in the early 50's meaning Skilled, Tough, Ready Around the Clock. Modified in the field to Stupid Trooper Running Around in Circles or Scram! The Russians Are Coming!

The salute: one version has it that was originated by a British soldier who threw his hand up to his brow to avoid being dazzled by the beauty of Queen victoria during a review. Another version is that it derived from the practice of British naval ratings to tug their forelocks as a sign of respect and obedience. another traces it to the practice of knights in armor of raising their helm to show their face and thus identify themselves to others.

Throwing down the gauntlet: an expression meaning to issue a challenge, derived from the ancient knightly custom of throwing the gauntlet from a knight's armor onto the ground in front of the one he was challenging. The obverse, "taking up the gauntlet", meant accepting a challenge and still does.

POSH: currently used to describe something classy or well appointed. The term originated during British rule in India, when the wise travelers knew that the best cabins to take advantage of shade and comfort on British Indiamen were Port Outbound and Starboard Home.

Shaking hands: this practice originated as a means of showing the one you were meeting that your right hand, your weapon hand, was empty and thus your intention was peaceful. The other clasped your right hand in his, thus insuring that weapons were safely stowed and no malice intended by either party.

Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey: According to naval historians, this expression originated from the days of sail and cannons, when ready rounds were kept next to guns by means of a brass plate with depressions in it to hold the cannonballs which was known as a "monkey". Extreme cold weather caused the brass to contract slightly, which pushed the cannon balls off the plate.

knot: A naval measurement of speed, determined by tossing a log overbaord attached to a line knotted at regular intervals. Counting the knots passing through the hand while timing the passage of the log gave the ship's speed in "knots".

Weigh anchor: a naval term derived from early custom of waiting until the capstan had hauled the anchor into the vertical hanging position, free of the bottom at which time the seaman responsible would call out: "the anchor is aweigh", taken to mean "away from the bottom and any obstructions."

Going to the head: a naval term meaning to use the bathroom. Sailing ships had no toilets. Sailors went to the area of the bow which housed the bowsprit, supported by a structure on either side called a "cathead." There they could void into the sea. Hence: "Im' going to the 'head".
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  #42  
Old 06 Oct 04, 12:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan
tank: originally a deception term used by the British to conceal the introduction of the first AFV's in WWI. Their manufacture was attributed to water tank works, and the finished product shipped to the front as "tanks". Now used universally as a term for AFV's.

Petard: an early form of satchel charge which was carried up to and deposited in front of a wall or gate to blast an opening. Notorious for unreliable and often early detonation, hence the origin of the expression "hoist by his own petard," meaning "blew himself up".

STRAC: an Army acronym for the revised forces in the early 50's meaning Skilled, Tough, Ready Around the Clock. Modified in the field to Stupid Trooper Running Around in Circles or Scram! The Russians Are Coming!

The salute: one version has it that was originated by a British soldier who threw his hand up to his brow to avoid being dazzled by the beauty of Queen victoria during a review. Another version is that it derived from the practice of British naval ratings to tug their forelocks as a sign of respect and obedience. another traces it to the practice of knights in armor of raising their helm to show their face and thus identify themselves to others.

Throwing down the gauntlet: an expression meaning to issue a challenge, derived from the ancient knightly custom of throwing the gauntlet from a knight's armor onto the ground in front of the one he was challenging. The obverse, "taking up the gauntlet", meant accepting a challenge and still does.

POSH: currently used to describe something classy or well appointed. The term originated during British rule in India, when the wise travelers knew that the best cabins to take advantage of shade and comfort on British Indiamen were Port Outbound and Starboard Home.

Shaking hands: this practice originated as a means of showing the one you were meeting that your right hand, your weapon hand, was empty and thus your intention was peaceful. The other clasped your right hand in his, thus insuring that weapons were safely stowed and no malice intended by either party.

Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey: According to naval historians, this expression originated from the days of sail and cannons, when ready rounds were kept next to guns by means of a brass plate with depressions in it to hold the cannonballs which was known as a "monkey". Extreme cold weather caused the brass to contract slightly, which pushed the cannon balls off the plate.

knot: A naval measurement of speed, determined by tossing a log overbaord attached to a line knotted at regular intervals. Counting the knots passing through the hand while timing the passage of the log gave the ship's speed in "knots".

Weigh anchor: a naval term derived from early custom of waiting until the capstan had hauled the anchor into the vertical hanging position, free of the bottom at which time the seaman responsible would call out: "the anchor is aweigh", taken to mean "away from the bottom and any obstructions."

Going to the head: a naval term meaning to use the bathroom. Sailing ships had no toilets. Sailors went to the area of the bow which housed the bowsprit, supported by a structure on either side called a "cathead." There they could void into the sea. Hence: "Im' going to the 'head".

Most interesting, MM!!
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Old 06 Oct 04, 12:36
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Three sheets to the wind: an expression used to denote someone who is really, staggeringly drunk. EX: "Boy, he was really three sheets to the wind last night!"

Derived from naval usage, in which severe storms were dealt with by shortening sail to a single sail, known as a sheet for sheet of canvas, per mast and turning to run with the wind, producing a wallowing, erratic, pitching path before the storm due to the action of having the sea directly astern.

Taken aback: an expression meaning taken by surprise, usually associated with confusion on the part of the individual. EX: "John was really taken aback by the news of his father's death."

Originally "he was taken all a'back" from naval sailing usage, in which catching an errant gust of wind the wrong way dumped it from the sails, brought the vessel up short with a lot of slapping and rattling of canvas and rigging and left the vessel unable to proceed in any direction until the sailing master could get the wind on the proper quarter once again and regain control of his vessel.

Showing your true colors: an expression meaning to reveal your true intentions. In the original military usage, military forces often concealed their flags of identity or regimental banners until close enough to engage the enemy by surprise, at which time they "showed their true colors", revealing their national identity and establishing whether their intentions were friendly or hostile. Even older usage: knights often covered the crests and heraldic devices on their shields with a cloth cover when traveling abroad. When envountering someone of unknown intentions, showing your "true colors", i.e., uncovering your identifying personal markings on your shield, revelaed your identity and allegiance to the other persons.

Pressed into service: this expression today means being drafted to do something, often something not directly in one's line of work or for which one is actually properly qualified. EX:"We were short of accountants, so Bob from Personnel was pressed into service to give us a hand."

But in sailing times it referred to the nefarious practice of all nations of sending out pressgangs into ports to take people against their will and "press them into service", often by force, to serve involuntarily aboard naval vessels. Britain was particularly bad about this.

Hauled up short: Today this remark is taken to mean that one's actions are restrained by someone of something rather abruptly. EX: He was hauled up short by the drop in the Dow Jones this morning."

In original naval usage, hauling up short referrecd to the maneuver in which a captain ordered a quick reefing of the sails, or shortening of canvas, while immediately turning into the wind, causing a rapid stop, known in naval parlance as "hauling up short." Of course, if he miscalculated, he would then be "taken a'back" by subsequent events .

Lee: this term today means to be sheltered, as in "he stood in the lee of the building, out of the wind and rain."

Naval usage defines the windward side and the lee side, which is the side away from the wind. Thus, anything nasty or unpleasant had to be dumped "in the lee", or in the sheltered side of the vessel unless the person doing it wanted to wear it. By extension, when your boss says he will give you a little "leeway" on a project, what he is actually saying is that you will be granted some quiet grace period in which to proceed, before you get bounced around again by the prevailing winds of office politics.

Over the yardarm: an expression used to decide if it is time to drink. "The sun is over the yardarm, folks. What will you have?"

On a sailing ship, watching the sun travel past the yardard on the mainmas, dead center in the middle of the vessel and the highest point aboard, is a sure sign that it is past noon, and therefore drinking is an acceptable custom as it was aboard British naval vessels. American naval vessels were, unfortunately, dry. Rumor has it that the Americans fought so tenaciously against the British because they wanted to capture the stores of wine and spirits, mainly rum, carried aboard British men'o'war.

More than any other service, our language has been transformed and colored by naval terminology.
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  #44  
Old 06 Oct 04, 14:00
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Quote:
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POSH: currently used to describe something classy or well appointed. The term originated during British rule in India, when the wise travelers knew that the best cabins to take advantage of shade and comfort on British Indiamen were Port Outbound and Starboard Home.
Unfortunately, this one is a common misconception. There's absolutely no evidence for it and the P&O shipping line who ran the ships where this term was supposed to have originated flatly denies that any such term existed.

There's a book that covers all sorts of language myths of this nature, and it's named after this one, the most common of them all:

POSH - and Other Language Myths. Michael Quinion. ISBN 0-140-51534-8.

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  #45  
Old 06 Oct 04, 16:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Sinister
Unfortunately, this one is a common misconception. There's absolutely no evidence for it and the P&O shipping line who ran the ships where this term was supposed to have originated flatly denies that any such term existed.

There's a book that covers all sorts of language myths of this nature, and it's named after this one, the most common of them all:

POSH - and Other Language Myths. Michael Quinion. ISBN 0-140-51534-8.

Dr. S.
Posh means kind of a snobby upper middle class person in england, does it not???
btw, great info, thanks.

Dear sinsiter, I visited the fifth sinister battalion, and was somewhat confused, I could not find discussions, I managaged to register, and hopefully post a question to the guy in charge of air games (I need to know about ubi soft's Sturmovik and multiplay on the Finnish fast connection ASDL)...
Otherwise, I couldnt find a forum even to suck up to you for rank!!!
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If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill
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