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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #16  
Old 02 Feb 16, 03:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
If Vladimir Putin is enacting the collective will of the Russian people by recasting Iosef Djugashvahli in a heroic part of the drama, then so be it.
The trouble is selling that line in the former Soviet satellite states, now independent. Russia has this interesting aspect of not having borders it necessarily accepts...
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  #17  
Old 02 Feb 16, 03:40
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
If Vladimir Putin is enacting the collective will of the Russian people by recasting Iosef Djugashvahli in a heroic part of the drama, then so be it.


Ok, I spent all this time refuting this statement, and yet without offering any criticism of my post you blankly claim that Putin is recasting Stalin and that this is the collective will of the Russian people. Well done!

If anything, you are a perfect example of how propaganda works. No matter how a statement is disproven, it is made "true" by simply ignoring the criticism and repeating it.

And of course, you've immediately got the usual suspect to howl along with you.
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  #18  
Old 02 Feb 16, 05:31
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I think we must thank liberal Yeltsin's team together with their American advisers for the growth of Stalin's popularity. Khruschev criticized Stalin because of his personal hatred, he had mighty Soviet propagandist machine at his disposal and many Soviet people were brainwashed, especially young ones. When during Gorbachev's era appeared Stalin's proponent Andreeva she was regarded by many in the USSR as being nuts for who else could say anything positive about Stalin. Anti-Stalinist and anti-Soviet campaign became much stronger by the end of 1980th and in 1990th, but when society has tasted fruits of liberal and democratic reforms, it started to compare their effectivenes of management of economy and society and democrats morale with Soviet and Stalin's such comparison was not in their favor. State's archives were opened, serious historians acquired possibility to investigate them and publicize their findings. Number of victims of Russia's modernization under Stalin was really big but much less then liberals ascribed to him. If those excesses were avoidable is big question. What does not cause question - Stalin was patriot and did not bought luxury yachts and appatments and moderated strictly appetites of Soviet apparatchiki while contemporary liberasts and dermocrats would sell own mom if price will suits them. Victims of their rule exceeded Stalin's ones, number of prison's inmates per 100 000 today is bigger than in 1930th, criminality is much higher. Stalin industrialized poor agrarian country, created good education and healthcare system while his most ardent critics proved being worms eating remnants of Soviet inheritance. Putin acquired high rating in Russia because he restored partly country's economy and does not betray country's interests as Gorbachev and Yeltsyn.
Hatred to Stalin on the West is understandabe - he has shattered plans of Western corporations and financiers to seize Russia's natural resources. Russia was single non-Western civilization that was not colonized.

As I see they on the West still have opinion that history is made by heroes while populace is passive object of maipulation. In old Soviet times was accepted Marx's-Lenin's opinion that leaders acquire their positions because they are expressing interests of social groups. Dictator pursuing only own whims is impossible thing, he simply will not live long. Stalin was really loved by many Soviet people because he expressed interests of greatest part of Russian populace. When reading Western media describing horrors of putinist Russia, how people are terrifyed under his yoke I wonder they really are that stupid? May be not, may be truth about real popularity of Putin in Russia is not acceptable for them.

Last edited by Fareasterner; 02 Feb 16 at 05:48..
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  #19  
Old 02 Feb 16, 06:12
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Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
(...) As I see they on the West still have opinion that history is made by heroes while populace is passive object of maipulation. In old Soviet times was accepted Marx's-Lenin's opinion that leaders acquire their positions because they are expressing interests of social groups. Dictator pursuing only own whims is impossible thing, he simply will not live long.
Generally it assumed a dictator needs the support of the *instrumental* part of a population.

That is - he needs the support of those that control the army, police and a good part of those that run the economy.

The rest of the population is considered inconsequential.
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  #20  
Old 02 Feb 16, 07:02
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Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
Can you actually tweak the default Instagram app to apply Stalin's moustache to people's mugs or do you still need that AppStore app for that?

Actually, I drank smoothies in 2007 way before the word "hipster" was introduced in Russia and smoothies became cool
So cool you were a "hipsternik" before hipsters eh?

As to your question I have no idea - don't use Instagram - not sure what you mean by "default Instagram" since you use Android (Samsung's Touchwiz version I suppose) I just pointed out there's a version for your phone. I'm a forbidden fruit user myself (though familiar with both as my organisation has worked on developing an app for a publication series for both ios and android).

As to the actual subject of this thread - well I am glad that you and the other Russian posters are looking at the whole Soviet period with a somewhat more balanced eye. Considering real change and accomplishments without forgetting tragedy. Anyway, Putin=Stalin is as stupid as the whole Bush=Hitler meme of last decade.
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  #21  
Old 02 Feb 16, 10:58
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Mr shAA,

My opinion of Josef stalin is NOT favourable...

What I AM saying is that there are many who wish to recast his role in Russian history. And it would not be the first time historical thought has been overturned by popular opinion, however ill informed it may be.

for the record, I believe Josef was a cruel man, a tyrant in the full sense of the word, a paranoic, and a vengeful leader who persecuted far too many ordinary citizens.

But, ultimately, I'm not russian. So, my opinion is colored by a strictly western perception of what a competent leader of hundreds of millions of people is.

IF his role is to be whitewadshed, an entire generation of russians will be blind to the truth of the matter. But what can I, personally do to change that, other than to passionately argue the point, and hopefully change the 'view' back, and try to remove the 'rose tinted glasses?"

Russia and Russians must take back control of their own past. It is not up to foreigners like me to tell them how they should think, but i will present the facts as i see them.

And that doesn't make me a participant in that whitewash at all.

Just an outsider, and one that doesn't speak the base language, or has never visited the country and met more than a handful of actual soviet russians in person.

You decide for yourselves.

Druski
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  #22  
Old 02 Feb 16, 11:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
Stalin was patriot and did not bought luxury yachts and appatments and moderated strictly appetites of Soviet apparatchiki while contemporary liberasts and dermocrats would sell own mom if price will suits them.
You'v got to admire this line...

"moderated strictly...appetites of Soviet apparatchiki while contemporary liberatists and democrats would sell own mom if suits them"

I don't care if Fareasterner IS a Stalinist.

One has to wonder why, after all this time and history, that the re-emergance of the "super-rich" in Russia has been "allowed".

I'm told that, 10 years ago, for every four american dollars entering the country, 1 dollar disappears entirely off the grid and is completely unaccounted for.

Both Lenin and stalin would be appalled, and i wonder what that Swarthy Georgian with the mustache would have done to fix such ramapnt corruption?
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  #23  
Old 02 Feb 16, 16:02
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Originally Posted by joea View Post
So cool you were a "hipsternik" before hipsters eh?


Quote:
As to your question I have no idea - don't use Instagram - not sure what you mean by "default Instagram" since you use Android (Samsung's Touchwiz version I suppose) I just pointed out there's a version for your phone. I'm a forbidden fruit user myself (though familiar with both as my organisation has worked on developing an app for a publication series for both ios and android).
Ok, now I think I've sorted it out. You gave me a link to the standard Instagram app which is definitely available on non-Apple devices because I've been using in on my Samsung for quite a while. However, the Instagram app does not have the "Stalin moustache" function which the author of the article made so much fuss about. I think I was confused by your statement that you can do this Stalin moustache in Instagram and I thought that maybe you discovered a "secret Stalin button" in Instagram or something Well, the thing is that there's a speciall app - not Instagram - which allows you to apply moustache to your pics, and here it is: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/msqr...065249424?mt=8

By the way, I'm really concerned about the Stalinisation of Britain now. The Brits seem to love the cat who looks like Stalin! And it's got an Instagram! Time to man the ramparts and save the Queen, British parliamentarism and the 4 o'clock tea!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hing-line.html

Quote:
As to the actual subject of this thread - well I am glad that you and the other Russian posters are looking at the whole Soviet period with a somewhat more balanced eye. Considering real change and accomplishments without forgetting tragedy. Anyway, Putin=Stalin is as stupid as the whole Bush=Hitler meme of last decade.
That's the point I was going to make by making this long post but some people wouldn't listen.
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  #24  
Old 02 Feb 16, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Mr shAA,

My opinion of Josef stalin is NOT favourable...

What I AM saying is that there are many who wish to recast his role in Russian history. And it would not be the first time historical thought has been overturned by popular opinion, however ill informed it may be.

for the record, I believe Josef was a cruel man, a tyrant in the full sense of the word, a paranoic, and a vengeful leader who persecuted far too many ordinary citizens.

But, ultimately, I'm not russian. So, my opinion is colored by a strictly western perception of what a competent leader of hundreds of millions of people is.

IF his role is to be whitewadshed, an entire generation of russians will be blind to the truth of the matter. But what can I, personally do to change that, other than to passionately argue the point, and hopefully change the 'view' back, and try to remove the 'rose tinted glasses?"

Russia and Russians must take back control of their own past. It is not up to foreigners like me to tell them how they should think, but i will present the facts as i see them.

And that doesn't make me a participant in that whitewash at all.

Just an outsider, and one that doesn't speak the base language, or has never visited the country and met more than a handful of actual soviet russians in person.

You decide for yourselves.

Druski


Look, let's start everything again.

I was not speaking about the personality of Stalin. I wasn't debating any sociological polls on Russians' attitude to Stalin. I wasn't making any appraisals of his reign. I did it in other posts and in other threads, but not here.

What I did here was a refutation, point by point, of the statements the author presented as ironclad proof Russia was getting "Stalinised" and that Putin encouraged the Stalinisation of the country.

You are free to agree or disagree with what I wrote, but on a forum like this, one expects debaters who disagree with the original statement to either find logical faults in it or to offer counterarguments.

What you did was write: "If Vladimir Putin is enacting the collective will of the Russian people by recasting Iosef Djugashvahli in a heroic part of the drama, then so be it."

Which means that you totally ignored what I wrote and unquestioningly agreed to the premise of the article. If you still consider the article to be true, you are welcome to comment on the points I made in my original post. If you don't consider it to be true, then your statement I quoted above is meaningless.
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  #25  
Old 20 Feb 16, 14:45
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Putin is not Stalin, he is a man we could work with until all hell broke loose over the Crimea Crisis.

Stalin couldn't be worked or reasoned with, if Stalin was alive in 2014 there would have been a nuclear war over Crimea and Ukraine.
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Old 20 Feb 16, 21:21
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Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
Putin is not Stalin, he is a man we could work with until all hell broke loose over the Crimea Crisis.

Stalin couldn't be worked or reasoned with, if Stalin was alive in 2014 there would have been a nuclear war over Crimea and Ukraine.
Why? What did the West do against Russia in Ukraine/Crimea? Nothing. That's why there was no nuclear war.
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Old 14 Mar 16, 09:55
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Well, now there's another sweet little piece in the NYTimes warning us all about Putin who works day and night to resurrect Stalin and to tell everyone how good he was. Let's look at the shocking facts the author presents us.

Stalin, Russia’s New Hero

Quote:
AT School No. 58 in Penza, a regional capital that is an eight and a half hour drive southeast of Moscow, the jury is still out on Joseph Stalin.

“He was a great man, unique in history,” Zhenya Viktorov, an 11th grader, told me on a recent visit. His classmate Amina Kurayev was more circumspect: “It wasn’t as terrible as they say.”
These 2 schoolchildren are the only people who the author questioned about the subject. Obviously, they were meant to illustrate his viewpoint on how widespread the veneration of Stalin is among millions of Russians.

Further on, the author brings up the poll figures which show an increase in the positive attitude to Stalin, and immediately proceeds to conjectures and assumptions. He didn't mention any public statements in support of Stalin which Putin made, nor any specific propadanda campaigns launched by Putin's government, nor just about anything else. Nothing. Zero. Nada. The only thing he says is:

Quote:
This quiet rehabilitation began after Vladimir V. Putin came to power in 1999. Stalin’s legacy has become a tacit justification as the Putin government has strengthened its own grip on power. Under Stalin, “order” and national prestige trumped human rights or civil liberties.
I have neither time nor willingness to list all the anti-Stalin and anti-Soiviet popular mass-media publications, films, etc. Here's a short quote from a 2007 article in the Moscow Times, which has always been staunchly opposed to Putin:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/printh...ry/363431.html

Quote:
It's somehow heartening to see Rossia television living up to its role as a public broadcaster with the premiere of "Lenin's Testament" in national primetime on Monday. The 12-part miniseries is based on the life and works of Varlam Shalamov, whose short story collection "Kolyma Tales" remains one of the seminal accounts of Stalin's gulag, in which the author spent more than 17 years.

...It's a sparse enough piece of television drama, indeed, especially by the entertainment standards of present-day Russian television (though Rossia also recently produced and broadcast Gleb Panfilov's adaptation of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "The First Circle," another gulag-related drama).

Perhaps ironically, Dostal's new miniseries is being promoted on the back of his television series "Shtrafbat" (Penal Battalion), which told the story of Soviet prisoners sent into suicidal front-line positions in World War II. The 2004 series proved highly popular with viewers and critics alike, and also garnered international acclaim -- one of the most cherished trophies on the director's awards shelf is a prize for that work from a Geneva television festival.
This is just beside a plethora of movies produced after 2007 up to the modern day (like "Burnt by the Sun - 2", 2010) and TV series which showed Stalin as a monster. All state-sponsored, state promoted and shown on state TV. And I've already mentioned the Political Histoty Museum with its new GULAG exhibition (opened 3 year ago parallel to the old one) quite a few times.

Putin must be either a very eccentric or incredibly devious personality to simultaneously strive for the resurrection of Stalin's personality cult and sponsor the movies which depict Stalin and the system he created in an absolutely negative light, showing them on state-owned channels in prime time. But don't worry, NY Times can't lie about Russia, because it's a democratic independent newspaper while it's an innate function of Russians to spread lies and "weaponise information with propaganda", right?

Quote:
Here in Penza, the Communist Party opened a Stalin Center in December. It’s just a few rooms of old photographs and newspapers and a lecture hall with a giant portrait of Stalin, but it makes a statement. A golden bust of Stalin stands in front of the building.
This has already been dealt with before. Not a rouble of state funds has been spent on the bust, and it's located in the courtyard of the CPRF building.

Quote:
Sites like these are becoming more and more common. In 2015, the Communist Party, which has 92 of 450 seats in Parliament and often toes the Kremlin line, raised a banner with pictures of Lenin and Stalin as the backdrop for the party plenary session.
I freaking want to pardon me, but what did the author expect from the Communists? That they would show portraits of von Mises and Hayek, and post pictures of Ayn Rand? The "toeing the line" part is totally ridiculous. For what it's worth, the Communists remain the only party in the government which is at least formally obliged to its voters to oppose Putin. Of course, being "His Majesty's Opposition" they have to stay within certain limits in order not to get pressed even harder, but this insinuation that installing the bust of Stalin was somehow made on Putin's orders is beyond ridiculous. The author is so desperate to find evidence of Putin's love of Stalin, he's making the most improbable leaps of logic to make his story at least remotely credible. Should we believe the Communists installed Stalin's bust in the middle of nowhere because Putin secretly ordered them to do so, or maybe there might have been a few fans of Stalin among (gasp!) Communists?

Quote:
At Victory Day celebrations last May 9, his image adorned a fence next to a Moscow police station.
Now that's really damning evidence. A fence next to a police station. This clearly means there's a Stalin shrine inside the station and all police officers wear secret Stalin moustache visible to Alec Luhn alone.

Quote:
Moscow’s best-known bookstore was recently promoting a book called “How Stalin Defeated Corruption.”
They also sell thousands of books about GULAG, but why mention them if you can make it seem to your readers that this is the only book on the subject evil Putin allows Russians to read. Also, I'd love to know what he meant by "promoting".

Quote:
School textbooks and state television programs, even if they briefly mention his human rights abuses, celebrate Stalin as a great leader.
Here comes a sweeping statement which is not supported by any evidence. I haven't watched television on a regular basis for many years, so I don't have the expertise to make any claims here, but I strongly doubt the author has done it either. I've already mentioned the TV series above.

Quote:
Mr. Putin has backed a planned monument to the victims of Soviet political repressions in Moscow, but that’s likely pure politics. He wants to play to the masses who are growing enamored of Stalin without alienating those Russians, such as the Moscow intelligentsia, who abhor him.
This guy reminds me of the classic story about a centipede which got tangled in its own legs. First of all, there are already monuments to victims of political repressions in Moscow, St. Petersburg and many other cities. There are at least 2 separate monuments in St. Petersburg and several memorial plaques. Now Putin is going to build something else, but please pay no attention to the facts which put a spanner in the works of the article's neat little spin. Oh, and can anyone tell me, why must you fear to alienate a pretty insignificant group of people in terms of power and influence (within the scale of the entire country) which already abhors you no matter what?

Quote:
The president has also carefully praised Stalin: “We can criticize the commanders and Stalin all we like, but can anyone say with certainty that a different approach would have enabled us to win?” he once said about World War II.
Oh mon dieu! Now that's a praise of praises! I've seen several people on the forum who have never been suspected of pro-Stalin sympathies who said similar things. Time to purge the heretics, I guess, because you are only allowed to say that absolutely everything Stalin did was bad.

Quote:
But Stalin receives more than just cagey rhetorical support. On Feb. 22, the Russian Military History Society — which Mr. Putin founded in 2012, is headed by the minister of culture and receives millions of dollars in state funding each year — paid for a bust of Stalin to be installed at a war museum in the city of Pskov, near the Estonian border.
Now that's the only fact of the Russian State's association with Stalin he could bring up. As it has been mentioned in other threads, state officials and MP make scandalous claims, however few of them are indicative of a certain state-directed policy. It's quite possible they will be corrected by the government, as it has already happened before on many occasions. The opening of the museum is scheduled for May, and there's enough time for the authorities to react. Let's see how it all will unfold. In any case, a single bust in a war museum doesn't an official governmental policy make.

Quote:
The minister of culture recently supported an exhibition of Socialist Realist paintings by Aleksandr Gerasimov, one of Stalin’s court painters, featuring portraits of the “generalissimo.”
Shock and horror! Another damning evidence! Several portraits of Stalin on display in an art museum will certainly convince the masses. Does the author really believe what he's writing, or does he think the paranioa and ignorance blinders on people in the West are so strong he can sell his ridiculous propaganda unchallenged by common sense?

Quote:
In today’s Russia, corrupt officials steal from the budget, police officers demand bribes and judges are believed to be bought and sold. Longing for the “order” of the past is palpable. The problem is that the fans of order never picture themselves as the ones being repressed, said Sergei Oleynik, head of the Penza branch of the liberal Yabloko Party. “When they talk about the Stalin era, they imagine the holster at the side, but not the barrel to the back of their neck,” he told me.
Here's a glimmer of some sort of realistic analysis, but it didn't last long

Quote:
The Kremlin also plays on Russian nostalgia for superpower status, stressing the glories of the Soviet past — first and foremost, victory in World War II — over the persecutions and famines. When Russia is besieged by enemies, including a government in Ukraine that the state news media has described as a “fascist junta,” the image of Stalin the defender against Nazis wins out over that of Stalin the paranoid tyrant. Can Mr. Putin’s strong hand similarly defend the motherland?
That's a textbook definition of conjecture and mispresentation of facts if you needed one. Never has Stalin's name been invoked in any official TV shows in the reporting on the Ukrainian crisis. Well, Mr. Luhn has made up his mind and for him, any fact can be twisted to signify the advent of Stalin cult in Russia.

Quote:
The Putin government is able to capitalize on Stalin’s legacy because Russia has not fully reconciled with the dark side of this heritage. The Moscow city administration opened a gulag museum last year, but most labor camps and mass graves around the country have not been commemorated.
Of course, the fact they are located in such remote parts of Siberia no one would ever think of going there has nothing to do with it. However, the Butovo and Levashovo execution grounds near Moscow and St. Petersburg have tons of memorials both inside and around them. But why mention the facts in the way of a good story. And once again, please please please, pay no attention to the Gulag museum. Listen to the honest Western journalist who physically can't lie just like all of us, good Western guys.

Quote:
Russia won’t be able to reform its increasingly authoritarian and corrupt government — which rejects “Western” values like human rights and democracy while buying into its capitalist economic model — as long as it refuses to acknowledge the excesses of the most tyrannical government in its past. Victor Erofeyev, a novelist whose father was a translator for Stalin, has said that “when Stalin dies in the soul of the last Russian, then you can say our country has a future.” Unfortunately, Mr. Putin is happy to keep him alive.
Oh, fantastic. Of course. As we can all see, Putin has gone out of the way to keep Stalin alive.

The really sad thing about this article is not the few scant and inconsequental signs of Stalin veneration the author mentioned. It's the fact that due to the inifinitely arrogant and smug attititude of the West no one is going to publicly challenge the lies Luhn spouted. And should anyone even attempt to do it, his words would be declared "Putin's propaganda" or "weaponisation of information" as the new trend goes.
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  #28  
Old 15 Mar 16, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
This quiet rehabilitation began after Vladimir V. Putin came to power in 1999
As explained many times before the trend for "rehabilitation" (meaning more positive attitude toward Stalin) began in 1990s well before Putin and was unrelated to official policy. What has changed is that in 1999 those views were marginal and were absolutely prohibited in media mainstream, while toward mid or late 2000s they were already not. The media followed the popular attitude rather the other way around.
As for examples of recent official's speech see:
https://latestnewsresource.com/en/ne...nu-v-periscope
In fact Russian Stalinist are constantly bitching about official statements calling them "anti-Soviet", "anti-patriotic", "liberal", paste any similar characteristic yourself.
Quote:
Russia won’t be able to reform its increasingly authoritarian and corrupt government — which rejects “Western” values like human rights and democracy while buying into its capitalist economic model — as long as it refuses to acknowledge the excesses of the most tyrannical government in its past
I'm curios what practical measures meant by "acknowledgment of excesses" which were not already done?
Info on political repressions in school textbooks - check
Plenty of book on the subject - check
Compensation to the victims - check
Official rehabilitation - check
Memorials to the victims - check
Regular denunciation in official statements - check
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  #29  
Old 15 Mar 16, 17:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
I'm curios what practical measures meant by "acknowledgment of excesses" which were not already done?
Info on political repressions in school textbooks - check
Plenty of book on the subject - check
Compensation to the victims - check
Official rehabilitation - check
Memorials to the victims - check
Regular denunciation in official statements - check
You forgot about the most important one:



Until these people get satisfied.
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  #30  
Old 15 Mar 16, 20:38
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Its good to see that some people remember.
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