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  #16  
Old 29 Jan 16, 04:55
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Crazy? Pfft!

I built one like it last week.

But it floated off and now I can't find it.

If anyone finds a ten million tonne airport on their beach send me a pm.
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  #17  
Old 29 Jan 16, 05:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Crazy? Pfft!

I built one like it last week.

But it floated off and now I can't find it.

If anyone finds a ten million tonne airport on their beach send me a pm.

Is that so you can send the 'men in white coats'?
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  #18  
Old 30 Jan 16, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Crazy? Pfft!

I built one like it last week.

But it floated off and now I can't find it.

If anyone finds a ten million tonne airport on their beach send me a pm.
Yeah I saw it beached over here last week but then the Feds came and I think they put it where they stash the stuff like Atlantis and El Dorado. I think they said something about not giving SpaceX any ideas...
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  #19  
Old 31 Jan 16, 19:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
Yeah I saw it beached over here last week but then the Feds came and I think they put it where they stash the stuff like Atlantis and El Dorado. I think they said something about not giving SpaceX any ideas...
Warehouse 13 is not big enough. Have to be Antartica, the Neu Swabia site?
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  #20  
Old 31 Jan 16, 20:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Draco's 800 meter diameter x 50 meter high cylindrical sea platform displaces approximately 8.855 million tons. That's the equivalent of about 120 Yamato class battleships. It's about half of the entirety of Britain's merchant marine and more than Japan's.

This is for a single "ship."

I'd say it's impossible to build. It would break up in a seaway because there is simply no material available that has the strength to take the resulting stresses.
It would also require roughly 3.54 million shp to make 6 knots. That's the equivalent of about 20 large ocean liners, 30 cruisers, or 20 Iowa class battleships at peak output.
It would have to have about 75 shafts installed to use that power as each shaft is torque limited to about 50,000 Hp again due to material limitations.

Even the rather ludicrous Habakkuk project wasn't anywhere near this insanely, impossibly stupid.
Yet again You show that Your years of purchasing for the navy provided You with zero engineering abilities, so that everyfhing seems daunting or even impossible to You.

The airport has a much narrower beam than that of USS Nimitz and its midline perimeter is 2.51 km, only 7.6 times longer than Nimitz, which displaces only 100,000 metric t. Moreover, the airport has a crew of a few hundred, 10,000 tons of gasoline & Diesel with a lower density than water, no nuclear reactors, oxygen liquefaction plant, food stores for a year, thousands of tons of planes, munitions, etc, I specified a teak deck and she cannot roll (being annular), so she has a much shallower draft than Nimitz, yet your estimated displacement is 89x greater than Nimitz's. Learn the basics before You ridicule an idea.
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  #21  
Old 31 Jan 16, 23:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Yet again You show that Your years of purchasing for the navy provided You with zero engineering abilities, so that everyfhing seems daunting or even impossible to You.

The airport has a much narrower beam than that of USS Nimitz and its midline perimeter is 2.51 km, only 7.6 times longer than Nimitz, which displaces only 100,000 metric t. Moreover, the airport has a crew of a few hundred, 10,000 tons of gasoline & Diesel with a lower density than water, no nuclear reactors, oxygen liquefaction plant, food stores for a year, thousands of tons of planes, munitions, etc, I specified a teak deck and she cannot roll (being annular), so she has a much shallower draft than Nimitz, yet your estimated displacement is 89x greater than Nimitz's. Learn the basics before You ridicule an idea.
You really don't look anything up do you? Third question you likely won't answer, just like the last two I posed.

The Nimitz class carrier has a waterline beam of 40.8m. You specified a "cylinder" 800 meters in diameter and 50 meters high. That gives the equivalent of 8.855 million displacement tons of volume. How much crap you stuff in it doesn't change that one iota. Displacement tons are calculated on the volume of the ship, not its weight. One displacement ton is equal to one cubic meter because that volume has the same weight as sea water.
In case you missed it, V = 3.1412*r^2*H...

It is you that knows nothing.
All the stuff you load it with will only cause it to settle deeper in the water.

This thing will roll. It will also tend to spin seeing as how it is a circular ship. The famous two Russian circular battleships did that on trials.

Since you now claim it has the same draft as a Nimitz carrier that means it draws 11.3 meters of water maximum. That gives it a displacement of 2 million tons, or 20 Nimitz class carriers. With a length to beam ratio of 1 to 1 (its circular) it has no lateral stability and will have extreme difficulty not spinning in any seaway with a current.
It also will have a massive amount of sail area so wind will affect it too.
This thing will bob like a cork in any sort of rough sea. Worse, it is several times longer than the distance between waves and can see anything from 2 to 10 meter waves in the Atlantic ocean, possibly higher. That means the bending moment is such that it is likely to break its back as waves pass it. It will be anything but stable in the Atlantic. Oh, the shallower the draft the more likely it will bob like a cork and the more likely it will do so in calmer seas.

So, try again. Your nonsense comparison to a US aircraft carrier is completely wrong. Your response is hereby ridiculed too.
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  #22  
Old 01 Feb 16, 00:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
You really don't look anything up do you? Third question you likely won't answer, just like the last two I posed.

The Nimitz class carrier has a waterline beam of 40.8m. You specified a "cylinder" 800 meters in diameter and 50 meters high. That gives the equivalent of 8.855 million displacement tons of volume. How much crap you stuff in it doesn't change that one iota. Displacement tons are calculated on the volume of the ship, not its weight. One displacement ton is equal to one cubic meter because that volume has the same weight as sea water.
In case you missed it, V = 3.1412*r^2*H...

It is you that knows nothing.
All the stuff you load it with will only cause it to settle deeper in the water.

This thing will roll. It will also tend to spin seeing as how it is a circular ship. The famous two Russian circular battleships did that on trials.

Since you now claim it has the same draft as a Nimitz carrier that means it draws 11.3 meters of water maximum. That gives it a displacement of 2 million tons, or 20 Nimitz class carriers. With a length to beam ratio of 1 to 1 (its circular) it has no lateral stability and will have extreme difficulty not spinning in any seaway with a current.
It also will have a massive amount of sail area so wind will affect it too.
This thing will bob like a cork in any sort of rough sea. Worse, it is several times longer than the distance between waves and can see anything from 2 to 10 meter waves in the Atlantic ocean, possibly higher. That means the bending moment is such that it is likely to break its back as waves pass it. It will be anything but stable in the Atlantic. Oh, the shallower the draft the more likely it will bob like a cork and the more likely it will do so in calmer seas.

So, try again. Your nonsense comparison to a US aircraft carrier is completely wrong. Your response is hereby ridiculed too.
Look up the word annular. I never mentioned cylinder.
I specified an annular airport with an 800 m OD and a 50 m wide deck at 8°, so the midline perimeter is 2.36 km (even shorter than above), I never mentioned height or draft. I just mentioned that there is an additioanl, parking area projecting inward.

I also mentioned that she rotates & gyroscopic force stabilizes her. Moreover, her size precludes bobbing, since she spans several wave crests in rough seas.

Not only does the airport reduce fuel consumption considerably on transatlantic flights, increasing paylood, she also allows twin engine planes to cross the Atlantic easily & even efficient single engine planes (even Lindy's inefficient plane made it over a much longer distance).

The airport will cause an economic bonanza for Ireland & Newfoundland.
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  #23  
Old 01 Feb 16, 00:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Look up the word annular. I never mentioned cylinder.
I specified an annular airport with an 800 m OD and a 50 m wide deck at 8°, so the midline perimeter is 2.36 km (even shorter than above), I never mentioned height or draft. I just mentioned that there is an additioanl, parking area projecting inward.
Per the New Oxford dictionary:
Quote:
an·nu·lar.

[ˈanyələr]

ADJECTIVE
1.
technical
ring-shaped.


synonyms: circular · ring-shaped · disk-shaped · round · discoid
That makes something "annular" 800 meters in diameter. YOUR first post said:

Quote:
The OD is 800 m, the berth is 50 m. The flight deck is banked 8° to allow acceleration for TO.
OD can be assumed to mean Overall or Outside Diameter. I took "berth" to be a mistake on your part for it's height between keel and top deck. That describes a cylinder.

You also mentioned "draft" here:

Quote:
...so she has a much shallower draft than Nimitz...


Quote:
I also mentioned that she rotates & gyroscopic force stabilizes her. Moreover, her size precludes bobbing, since she spans several wave crests in rough seas.
And this is drivel. A cylinder will rotate in a seaway. It also has to, just like anything afloat, support itself as it moves through waves, as waves pass it. This is referred to as the "bending moment" of the ship and can describe hogging or sagging between waves.
Because the thing spans several waves the amount of support its getting varies with the wave height at each location along its length.

If instead, you are making something like inner tube with a runway on top, it'd break up even faster than the cylinder and have less stability to boot.
In the case of a toroid (eg., something that looks like an inner tube), the displacement is 4.318 million tons total for one 800 meters in diameter and having a 50 meter ring diameter. So, with the same draft, it still runs close to 1 million tons displacement.

A one foot of such a toroid at 50 meters diameter using 1/4" plate steel will weigh between 3 and 4 tons minimum depending on what sort of frame is necessary underneath it. I'd expect it to weigh closer to 5 to 8 tons per foot, possibly more and there's a good likelihood that the plating would have to be thicker to take the stresses, if that's even possible. That doesn't include any internal structure like bulkheads, decks, or the like.





Quote:
Not only does the airport reduce fuel consumption considerably on transatlantic flights, increasing paylood, she also allows twin engine planes to cross the Atlantic easily & even efficient single engine planes (even Lindy's inefficient plane made it over a much longer distance).

The airport will cause an economic bonanza for Ireland & Newfoundland.
Who gives a $h!+ since the thing would break up and sink long before it was in use due to a combination of its shape and size, not to mention how useful is an airfield it you can't line up on it because it's rotating and pitching in a seaway.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 01 Feb 16 at 01:19..
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  #24  
Old 01 Feb 16, 00:55
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Never mind who has the ship yard that can even build a thing of this size? Never mind in a few years...

Though Circular ships I believe the Russians tried that around 1870, they sucked... Hard to steer IIRC.
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  #25  
Old 01 Feb 16, 14:39
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Oh, and if it's a toroid, then the airfield has to be supported between the two sides over the open middle of 700 meters. That span is the same as one on the Oakland Bay bridge and would need to be considerably stronger to take the flexing of the toroid in heavy seas.

Then comes the fun of some airplane trying to line up on a runway that is moving right to left or left to right due to the spinning motion of the platform which couldn't be controlled while pitching up and down and probably flexing in angle while doing this without regard to wind direction since the airfield would only face into the wind by chance.
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  #26  
Old 01 Feb 16, 17:46
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There is absolutely no need for or benefit from spanning the interior. It is not a catamaran, but a continuous annular structure. Think of it as a catamaran whose two hulls are curved and joined.

The smartass who pointed out that it has poor hydrodynamics forgot that it is supposed to remain so close as possible to midocean, simply rotating without going anywhere.

The 8 tubular sections are built in the countries mentioned & no shipyard is used for joining the sections, only a steep beach. an 8 m long tubular, curved coupling is cooled with dry ice & slid inside the two sections (whose ends to be welded are heated), chambers are flooded away from the joint & a wedge driven underneith the joint, so as to raise the joint above the beach for welding.

Once the toroid is completed the lattice structure which supports the deck is welded to it.
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Old 01 Feb 16, 18:22
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  #28  
Old 02 Feb 16, 00:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
There is absolutely no need for or benefit from spanning the interior. It is not a catamaran, but a continuous annular structure. Think of it as a catamaran whose two hulls are curved and joined.
So, it is essentially an inner tube with a runway plopped across the top of it.

That means the runway has to span about a 700 meter gap in the middle. That's, as pointed out, the span of the longest sections of the Oakland Bay bridge.
The hull weight would be around 500,000 tons for a 50 meter diameter tube given typical ship structure at the time. How much the supporting structure for that runway would be... Then add all the necessary fuel, machinery, etc., aboard...
I'd guess the thing would be close to 1 million tons, probably more, with a draft of about 12 to 15 meters.


Quote:
The smartass who pointed out that it has poor hydrodynamics forgot that it is supposed to remain so close as possible to midocean, simply rotating without going anywhere.
As opposed to the dumbass who thinks this thing will not have to flex and bend as waves pass it. There's a reason large catamaran hulls are rarely used... They have severe problems with stress on the deck structure connecting the two hulls. They also tend to ride poorly in heavy seas.
With a circular hull structure as proposed it would be subjected to uneven stresses from wave action continuously.
Sitting mid-ocean without propulsion it would continuously bob around as well as spin. It would require a massive amount of continuous propulsion effort just to stay in place and counter the tendency to spin.
This would be necessary for using the runway. An aircraft could hardly be expected to try and land on it if the runway were moving to the left of right of the plane's flight path while pitching up and down and yawing from side to side. Worse, would be if the runway were aligned such that there was a severe cross wind rather than it being headed into the wind.

This platform sank in the Atlantic due to wave action:



Before an Atlantic storm:



After an Atlantic storm:



You propose something less structurally sound, that is far more vulnerable to wave action than those platforms.


Quote:
The 8 tubular sections are built in the countries mentioned & no shipyard is used for joining the sections, only a steep beach. an 8 m long tubular, curved coupling is cooled with dry ice & slid inside the two sections (whose ends to be welded are heated), chambers are flooded away from the joint & a wedge driven underneith the joint, so as to raise the joint above the beach for welding.
So, you've now added a completely insane method of construction that has never been tried or used in manufacturing a ship. You also want a bunch of countries, possibly most of which have little or no experience with pre-fabrication, welding, and other techniques, might have differences in measuring systems, and also have language differences to manufacture parts of this.
As with the German experience of pre-fabricating the Type XXI submarine (just 8 sections) where manufacturers found it difficult to impossible to meet the tolerances necessary for mating the sections due to differences in technique and such, the same is going to be true here.
Your "dry ice" idea is simply insane. There is no means of making the quantities necessary, manufacturers would laugh you out of the room for suggesting it.
Trying to assemble this thing on a beach is insane too. The weight alone is such that you'd soon run into problems of soil support and questions on how it would be moved.
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Old 02 Feb 16, 18:44
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I'm learning a lot about nautical engineering from you guys. Even the one that's getting it horrendously and comically wrong.

Thanks!
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Old 02 Feb 16, 19:26
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TAG,
Focus man, focus, please! pinch your balls if You have to, in order to remain awake.

You simply do not understand that the annular deck is 50 m wide & 2.36 km long, slanted 8° to prevent side slip from centrifugal force. It is infinetely better for landing or taking off than a carrier or even an 800 m cylinder, on which it would be imposible to land, if it were rotating.

Your dictionary definition stating that annular is disk like is perfectly wrong. Annular means that there is a whole, bigger than the width of the material. Like a ring, a freezbe, etc, Eevn an old music record with a small whole is not really annular.

An anchored tower is far more vulnerable in a storm than a floating vessel. The airport is much less susceptble to damage & impossible to capsize (as the DD often did in a typhooon, especially when they were very low on fuel).

The fact that You mention 1/4" plate proves that You're severely challenged engineering-wise. The vessel would immediately fail by local buckling. Moreover, the fact that the deck is 50 m wide tells You nothing about the diameter of the section of the toroid. As I wrote, the deck is supported by a lattice structure.
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