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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #61  
Old 20 Jun 16, 06:54
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Painting them as innocent onlookers and victims of unprovoked Russian aggresion is disingenuous. The crowd standings attack was rightfully condemned, Russian Football officials joining in the condemnations. What else can be done? Usually it is up to the match organiser to take care of security and opposing fans separation. I have to ask you again, did you skip the news or just decided to tune in once the Russian hooligans made an appearance? Because there were other cases.
Individuals vandalising public and private property, attacking people around them and behaving in an outright disgusting manner deserve that characterisation, no matter their ethnicity.

For a country in a supposedly heightened level of security, France has rather lax search rules. Some Croatian fans reported they haven't even been scanned and searched when entering the stadium. This time it was the banned pyrotechnics, but it could have been something else. In my opinion, this whole thing is blown out of proportions, and with the exception of unfortunate people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time, shouldn't even have been publicised - not giving them attention while giving them a dose of batons, hefty fines or imprisonment is the way.

Last edited by Epigon; 20 Jun 16 at 07:04..
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  #62  
Old 20 Jun 16, 08:28
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Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
Painting them as innocent onlookers and victims of unprovoked Russian aggresion is disingenuous.
I think you are kind of missing the point that the days of such hooliganism belongs to the past - at least any sort of acceptance for it in the Western Europe.

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2008/06/2...-a-good-thing/
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Usually it is up to the match organiser to take care of security and opposing fans separation.
Yet if the grownup people actually acted like adults there wouldn't be any need for such in the first place
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I have to ask you again, did you skip the news or just decided to tune in once the Russian hooligans made an appearance? Because there were other cases.
Individuals vandalizing public and private property, attacking people around them and behaving in an outright disgusting manner deserve that characterization, no matter their ethnicity.
What was previously reported was drunken and disorderly behavior from British fans. Assaulting some one is a totally different thing.
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In my opinion, this whole thing is blown out of proportions, and with the exception of unfortunate people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time, shouldn't even have been publicised
Of course it needed to be publicized - there is no place or time for hooliganism of any sort.
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  #63  
Old 20 Jun 16, 15:19
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Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
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Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
You seemed to miss the point. Given how many Russian figures with authority have come out with messages of condoning or even supporting the violence the Kremlin message is not really believable.
Again, Russian authorities (including a minister for sport and a president) in their official statements unequivocally condemned hooliganism. The picture of "support" is manufactured by cherry-picking comments in social media which were to a large degree put out of context. Yes, there are guys in Russian Parliament who use to make some brusque statements privately or publicly (already mentioned Zhrinovsky is especially notorious), yet it would be a mistake to equalize them with official position. Simply speaking the British media created a strawman and then fought it. As for reaction in Russian media, I haven't noticed some mainstream support, also reaction was not nearly as 10% as strong as British. Something like "a curious event but not a major deal". Probably because Russian are more accustomed to fans rampage.
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Sure, but UK is not in any way supporting or encouraging them and in fact reportedly retained around 3 000 passports to prevent worst offenders from even reaching France.
I don't see how Russian government supports or encourages football hooliganism. That they didn't properly filter out hardcore fans is most probably true, but that's another thing.
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You only need to watch the scenes from the game to see that the argument the British put forward was not exactly that badly off either. Russian hooligans attacking British fans who included women and children kinda leaves rather bad taste, at least to those who saw it.
You are talking about the fight on the stadium apparently. There were however events before it in which some part of British fans were willingly involved. As I already said the fact is that they started brawls in Marseilles even before Russians appeared on the scene. Apparently some casuals got caught in fights initiated by hardcore fans from both sides, although others propelled by alcohol joined them voluntary. As I see it the British press focused too much on "Putin's thugs" and too little on their own "Cameron's thugs", putting squarely the blame on the first.
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That some one is sick enough to make such a post is horrible (just in case it wasn't clear, i do not refer to your post but to the one you linked to)
Well, I must be a more cynical person than you.
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Did i at any point state that i would agree with that description?
What the argument is about then?
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  #64  
Old 21 Jun 16, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
I have to admit, I don't really understand the Russian politics when it comes to the Baltic countries (disclaimer: this is a geographic term, I am not impying Estonians are Balts)

If Russian minorities don't like it there and feel threatened, they would have emigrated to a larger degree. If they are persecuted, surely they would have fled in the past 25 years.

On the political field, the Russian complaints about SS marches and historical revisionism are completely pointless and fruitless. They, along with Poland, are the most ardent anti-Russian European NATO countries, right there with Sweden and a large part of Finland.
It's because it plays to be the victim in politics. Russia complains about being the victim of anti-Russian western plots, the EU complains about Russia acting like a big tyrant, etc. etc.

Being the victim is part of the song and dance states use to seek moral authority alongside your standard sympathy, and it plays very strongly to a domestic audience.

This goes back to historical injustices as well, which make wonderful analogies for the modern audience. Poland calling back to Soviet oppression in the east, Russia raising warnings about a Nazi comeback in the west - they all love to remind the people that they are the victims.

Even those who weren't direct victims love to dip their toe in (insert another British 'Putin is Stalin!' article here).

In the end, really consider who the audience is for these messages. Most of the Russian transmissions about the Baltics and Nazis are meant for the domestic sphere, with the additional benefit of trying to muddle the ground in any information conflict (as in Ukraine). When times are trying or there is political upheaval at home (see Poland, Venezuela, Argentina, ad. nauseum) then you will often see a more bellicose tone aimed mostly at bringing the people around in support.

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Therefore: cut the oil and gas transit, cargo routes/transit and every concievable economic cooperation. Down to the last bit. Go for self-sufficiency. Build a 'UUUUUGE wall thereafter. The countries may be beautiful, but they have little strategic value, rather bad soil and climate, and practically no strategic resources. A hypothetical NATO force stationed there would be quickly isolated and annihilated: the countries themselves have little military power.
You're right about NATO - it's mostly a show of force meant to reassure some members and act as a not-so-subtle "we're watching you" message to Russia. Militarily, a few hundred soldiers isn't going to do much in a serious conflict.

As for the autarky route... well, when has that ever worked? Russia's economy is depending on its oil. It can wield that as a weapon when threatened, but it requires that profit to sustain itself economically.

More importantly, the interdependence of Europe and Russia actually helps reduce the chance of wider conflict. That's why, despite "sanctions" being deployed you have BP recently announcing expansion of its investments in Siberia in collaboration with Russian state-oil firms.

Autarky isn't a solution in the modern world, especially for a nation like Russia where so much of its economy is dependent upon resource exports.

What it can do, though, is continue to remain on message - keep telling citizens at home and sympathetic ears abroad about the resurgent Nazis, the threat to poor defenseless Russian minorities. Remind them of Ukraine and Odessa and the continued ignorance by the west of all those tens of thousands of civilians being raped/butchered/blown up/poisoned/etc. by Kiev's forces.

It may seem pointless to you from a "it doesn't change anything" perspective, but that's because such commentary isn't meant to really change a thing. All those American politicians who gave lip-service to Russia's aggression and tyranny and what have you in annexing Crimea were just there to get some air time, play to domestic audiences, maybe add a bit to the foreign discussion (not much), and then go home and move on. It's not as though there was going to be an actual attempt to get Russia to give Crimea back - it's just politics as usual.

Like I said, everyone likes to be the victim, and making others out to be threatening aggressors helps that along nicely.
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  #65  
Old 01 Jun 17, 03:47
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More news from the world of people with extra chromosome:
Baltic experts call "Masha and the Bear" cartoon series a part of Russian hybrid warfare and an attempt to undermine stability in Baltic countries:


https://ria.ru/culture/20170531/1495504482.html
http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/art-2000005232029.html

Frankly speaking I even feels something like compassion to the Unites States. It's not easy when your nominal allies are like that.
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