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  #16  
Old 01 Feb 16, 03:47
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IIRC the Canadian arty had a female FO (capt) KIA in Afghanistan.
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  #17  
Old 03 Feb 16, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
At least she wants extra training. How many yong officers want extra training.
I and many of my peers did. ..but we were US Marines & that was 1982-83. Maybe things have changed.

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Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Gotcha. Well that should be easy then.

"Lieutenant.....when you get to your unit in the fleet just ask a sergeant what he wants you to do and follow his instructions."
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Isn't that SOP for all second lieutenants? At least for the ones who want to live to become first lieutenants...
Maybe in the US Army, tho I doubt it applied back in the 1980s. Certainly did not work in the Marines. I talked & listened to the NCOs but automatically following behind them seldom.

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Originally Posted by Soothesayer View Post
IIRC the Canadian arty had a female FO (capt) KIA in Afghanistan.
We had a half dozen women in our FA Basic course @ Ft Sill back in 1982-83. They all went on to billets in the Army FA. Anyone who thinks women in the FA is still a social experiment does not know their history & is out of touch.

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Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Did you take her out to the range and see if she could lift the 155 shells first?
In my ten years with the guns I observed nearly half the males had severe trouble with the 45kg 155mm ammunition. Muscle/skeletal injuries were as common as dirt among the ammo train crews & the gun crews. Size and muscle strength were not protection from the stress or prolonged ammo handling. I've personally put fifty to sixty of the beasts back on a five ton in a hour & handled vastly more over the years & am kind of curious if any here has more experience at this sort of thing. If you are dependent on brute strength for ammo handling vs intelligent planning you are unlikely to get a promotion recommendation from me.
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  #18  
Old 03 Feb 16, 15:20
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Did two years with a 155 SP outfit - 1/29 FA - in the late 70's and tried endlessly to get proper training for the ammo handlers to no avail, but the battery commanders bitched endlessly that too many of the troops were laid off due to injuries. OTH hand, I moved railroad ties and endless bags of concrete mix by myself without ever experiencing any injuries.

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  #19  
Old 03 Feb 16, 15:47
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Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post

In my ten years with the guns I observed nearly half the males had severe trouble with the 45kg 155mm ammunition. Muscle/skeletal injuries were as common as dirt among the ammo train crews & the gun crews. Size and muscle strength were not protection from the stress or prolonged ammo handling. I've personally put fifty to sixty of the beasts back on a five ton in a hour & handled vastly more over the years & am kind of curious if any here has more experience at this sort of thing. If you are dependent on brute strength for ammo handling vs intelligent planning you are unlikely to get a promotion recommendation from me.
I would argue that not putting your gun crews in the gym when they aren't in the field is where the problem is. I don't have experience with artillery ammo, but I'm signal so I handle UPS's, CPN stacks, and STT trailers, and drash tents more than I want. What the army wants as far as prt isn't going to help when you are needing upper body strength to man handle 110 pound battery cases and server stacks. That is going to require time in the gym following a planned workout. Personally I think the gym is required for just about any MOS, be it Combat Arms, Signal, Trans, supply, etc.

To help us intelligently move our gear though we are trying to build an aluminum mini crane that fits inside a commex, has rough terrain tires, and will enable 1 person to move a cpn stack in to place. The downside is once we are in the field it doesn't really convert to use from the back of a humvee, so muscle power is needed once again.
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  #20  
Old 04 Feb 16, 03:52
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We experiienced this phenomenon as meatworkers.

the repitiative nature of the job, coupled with the out of condition status of many new workers, produced an absentee rate that really did make us wonder whether new people wanted a job or not.

after about three months, or a little shorter for the more enthusiastic ones like ME, the feet were less sore, the muscles adapted, and things just didn't seem such a burden anymore.

the problems came when you moved to a different job.

going from bending over a slicing table for 13 hours, to standing on Pre-Trim with your hands above your neckline was sometimes quite painful at first.

But, you adapted, and stopped sweating from the effort.

Great days! Hard work! Good people...the ones that stayed!
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Old 04 Feb 16, 08:31
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Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
Maybe in the US Army, tho I doubt it applied back in the 1980s. Certainly did not work in the Marines. I talked & listened to the NCOs but automatically following behind them seldom.
That is how we dealt with Officers also.

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We had a half dozen women in our FA Basic course @ Ft Sill back in 1982-83. They all went on to billets in the Army FA. Anyone who thinks women in the FA is still a social experiment does not know their history & is out of touch.
Maybe in the US Army but not in the Marines. As I said in the OP this was a first for the Marines Corps. TBS also said that she is the first to get orders out of TBS to get the FA MOS.
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  #22  
Old 10 Feb 16, 08:50
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Did two years with a 155 SP outfit - 1/29 FA - in the late 70's and tried endlessly to get proper training for the ammo handlers to no avail, but the battery commanders bitched endlessly that too many of the troops were laid off due to injuries. OTH hand, I moved railroad ties and endless bags of concrete mix by myself without ever experiencing any injuries.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can;t keep him from peeing in it before he drinks it.
Indeed. PT training tends to be by the book & often inappropriate to MOS, or the reality of the battlefield. Techniques for heavy lifting are too specialized & perhaps too mental to get the attention of battery & battalion leaders.

Quote:
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I would argue that not putting your gun crews in the gym when they aren't in the field is where the problem is. ...
What I observed over the years was the injury rate for the 'in shape' men was still to high. Less than for the less capable, but not enough to prevent significant attrition/cost. Second was how when only 30 or 40 % of the available bodies had the basic body for the heavy lifting you run up against the extra cost in training time to bring a portion of the balance up to speed, what are you sacrificing to make that gain. Training time is finite & when you increase a item something else drops off the schedule.

Third problem is ammo handling in training came in bursts. We had a day or a few days of shooting & then a week or multiple weeks or months of other activity.
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  #23  
Old 10 Feb 16, 13:28
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The thing is that this kind of "work" will always break your body. Or any work for that matter...battlefield stuff is just way more intense. Because that's how you win. I'm pretty sure my back is somewhat broken/bent out of shape due top the 2 years I spent in the army. Not that 8 hours sitting in office jobs has helped either. The only real injury though was a hair fracture on my leg, which I reckon I got from running/exercising.

People who are in good or even better shape also get more injuries. Because being in better or good shape means that you are able to, and need to, push your body above and beyond its limits.
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  #24  
Old 20 May 16, 19:43
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Yesterday an active duty Infantry Captain, a retired Infantry Gunner, a retired Artillery SNCO, and I were at The Basic School (TBS), specifically in the Training Set Forward Observer building.

The Captain was signing out three laptops for a demonstration that he will be doing for the Commandant. So the four of us were informally discussing the current state of simulation & modeling in the USMC. There was a knock on the door so I opened it and a young woman in civilian clothes walks in. She had just graduated TBS and she was looking for additional FO training before she reported to her MOS school; Fort Sill.

Within 2 weeks of the SecDef order about opening the Combat Arms to women.......we had a Female Marine with orders to become an Artillery Officer.
Turns out that Lt Brodie is the Honor Grad from her Artillery Course.....

https://twitter.com/usmc/statuses/733797571596943361

I guess with the new PC rules, we can no longer call Artillery Bubbas gun bunnies or cannon cockers..........We'll just call them Artillery Marines. S/F

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  #25  
Old 22 May 16, 00:32
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Did you take her out to the range and see if she could lift the 155 shells first?
Let 'em find out! The best teaching in the World. I would say that the young lady has far reaching objectives in her sights even if they are only dreams. lcm1
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Old 22 May 16, 00:39
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Indeed. PT training tends to be by the book & often inappropriate to MOS, or the reality of the battlefield. Techniques for heavy lifting are too specialized & perhaps too mental to get the attention of battery & battalion leaders.



What I observed over the years was the injury rate for the 'in shape' men was still to high. Less than for the less capable, but not enough to prevent significant attrition/cost. Second was how when only 30 or 40 % of the available bodies had the basic body for the heavy lifting you run up against the extra cost in training time to bring a portion of the balance up to speed, what are you sacrificing to make that gain. Training time is finite & when you increase a item something else drops off the schedule.

Third problem is ammo handling in training came in bursts. We had a day or a few days of shooting & then a week or multiple weeks or months of other activity.
You know, I can read all this stuff, with a sad smile on my face. lcm1
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  #27  
Old 23 May 16, 19:22
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You know, I can read all this stuff, with a sad smile on my face. lcm1
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  #28  
Old 23 May 16, 21:24
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Social experiments don't belong in uniforms.
George Catlett Marshall said the same thing in 1941. Of course he was talking about integrating the Army.
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Old 24 May 16, 12:17
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Let 'em find out! The best teaching in the World. I would say that the young lady has far reaching objectives in her sights even if they are only dreams. lcm1
Looks like they already found out, she was the honor grad for the class.

Somehow she managed to lift those 155 shells......I honestly don't know how. She might have been 115 pounds soaking wet when I saw her in January.
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Old 24 May 16, 15:13
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Looks like they already found out, she was the honor grad for the class.

Somehow she managed to lift those 155 shells......I honestly don't know how. She might have been 115 pounds soaking wet when I saw her in January.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of fight in the dog."
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