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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #1081  
Old 13 Feb 16, 14:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
The line where he has him apologize for "advocated the invasion of Poland and the USSR" is what made me look into what the relations between Germany and Poland where before the war.

And it turns out they where fairly friendly, as Hitler was trying to get Poland to join with him in an alliance. That largely stopped after Munich. Before that He was trying to do what Draco wants, get Poland to join with him and mount a joint invasion of Russia as that's his ultimate goal, but Poland did not want to join, so he had no choice but to invade.
Which follows the reasoning everybody but Draco has advocated: Hitler can't cajole other countries into joining him for a military conquest of anybody by political discourse. Friendly or threatening, they just aren't going to join because their leaders see no benefit from a protracted war.

For example, if Russia hadn't invaded Finland (the Winter War) the Finns would have had ZERO reason to join the Axis, even marginally, in doing anything. They'd have remained neutral and out of the war.
In Draco's scenario that would have been their position leaving Hitler with the choice of invasion or going home empty handed.

Romania too was a reluctant ally. They only joined because of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia. If that doesn't happen they don't have any reason to join in an Axis military campaign of conquest.

Bulgaria stayed mostly out of the war because they had no reason to join in it. Turkey is the exact same way. Joining Germany buys them nothing and potentially it could have seen them lose sovereignty over more land.

The Netherlands gains nothing in a joint venture, and according to Draco, they lose their overseas colonies to Germany. Some deal they get... Pants yanked down and done dry repeatedly.

Norway and Sweden get nothing out of joining the Axis other than to be pawns to be expended for Germany's military ambitions.

The list goes on. Even a friendly Hitler couldn't build a coalition based on the end desire of military conquest. It flies in the face of sound political and military strategy for nations to get involved for the greater good of just Germany.
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  #1082  
Old 13 Feb 16, 15:02
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If Draco isn't going to have a discussion then can we have him removed? While I enjoy the heck out of his "efforts", in much the same way videos of stupid people doing stupid things can be entertaining, at some point even in extreme alternate history discussions there has to be a basis in reality.

So if we cannot actually have him engage and discuss collaboratively his ideas, he is hurting the community and modelling bad behavior. As much as it pains me (I enjoy and learn a lot when TA and others dismantle Draco), for the good of the community, the quality of the community, it may be time to jettison Draco.
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  #1083  
Old 13 Feb 16, 15:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
The British army had only been trounced by Germany in 1940, the British people would have promptly thrown in the towel with the USSR, Spain, etc, also in the war & after losing Egypt, Sudan, Palestine, Jordan, middle east oil & access to the Med. The US would certainly see no point in supplying for free a doomed country, which has lost every battle against Germany & the USSR.
You clearly don't understand 1940s Britain. Surrender was a complete non-starter for them. Even with all those countries in the war they could not have defeated the Royal Navy and thus never invade Britain. Even if they did Britain would have gone down fighting, whether you think its dumb or not.
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  #1084  
Old 13 Feb 16, 17:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
You clearly don't understand 1940s Britain. Surrender was a complete non-starter for them. Even with all those countries in the war they could not have defeated the Royal Navy and thus never invade Britain. Even if they did Britain would have gone down fighting, whether you think its dumb or not.
It's rather funny that You too fell for Winnie's bombastic BS.
He was boasting about fighting in the beaches, hills, pubs, etc, yet the British army ran in Dunkirk & surrendered in Crete, Gazala, Tobruk, Malaya, Burma, HK, Dodecanese, etc, never fighting till the end.
Hitler & Goebbels also made speeches about the Volksturm, etc, fighting to the last man & child, yet when thousands of tanks, cannon & planes entered Germany on both sides, they surrendered in droves.
It is much easier to make 1,000 speeches than to win a single battle or even to ensure sufficient goods & shipping to survive (which were made possible only by the US).

As I wrote, Britons were so fed up at being consistently trounced, that parliament cheered when large numbers of men managed to escape in Dunkirk & when the RN, in a much more dastardly attack than PH, killed 1,300 neutral sailors.

Britons knew that they could never defeat the German army in Europe alone, but they hoped to hold on to the Empire. Hitler allowed them to secure American help & retain hope by sending a ridiculous force to vital Africa (while he sent a huge force to Yugoslavia & Greece), which was poorly supplied through Tripoli.

Had Hitler sent a larger force supplied through Tunisia, it would have proptly wiped out the British in N Africa. That & the entry of the USSR into the axis & the subsequent entry of Spain & loss of the middleeast would have cut off American help immediately, without which British shipping was doomed.

It was not Winnie's tough speeches, but free American goods, ships & warships escorting them & planes sinking U-boats, which allowed Britain to survive.

Moreover, with the USSR in the axis, Japan can promptly invade British Borneo, Malaya-Singapore & then Ceylon, without fearing the US declaring war.

Hell, even if your tough Limeys had not surrendered & chose to starve, with middle east oil, allies & access to attack Baku from Iran, Germany would have defeated the USSR.
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  #1085  
Old 13 Feb 16, 18:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
It's rather funny that You too fell for Winnie's bombastic BS.
He was boasting about fighting in the beaches, hills, pubs, etc, yet the British army ran in Dunkirk & surrendered in Crete, Gazala, Tobruk, Malaya, Burma, HK, Dodecanese, etc, never fighting till the end.
Hitler & Goebbels also made speeches about the Volksturm, etc, fighting to the last man & child, yet when thousands of tanks, cannon & planes entered Germany on both sides, they surrendered in droves.
It is much easier to make 1,000 speeches than to win a single battle or even to ensure sufficient goods & shipping to survive (which were made possible only by the US).
You really don't understand Sun Tzu, among others on strategy, do you?

That aside, Germany doesn't have a navy. Without one Germany can't invade England successfully and that means they are virtually never going to surrender.

Quote:
As I wrote, Britons were so fed up at being consistently trounced, that parliament cheered when large numbers of men managed to escape in Dunkirk & when the RN, in a much more dastardly attack than PH, killed 1,300 neutral sailors.
So? There was no "...more dastardly attack than PH,..." regarding the now Vichy French Fleet. The British tried negotiating a position with France over their fleet. The French refused. The British warned them they'd respond by attacking and did.

So, show us sources and evidence that the attack on the Vichy French Fleet by the RN and Britain were surprise attacks or retract the statement and apologize.

Quote:
Britons knew that they could never defeat the German army in Europe alone, but they hoped to hold on to the Empire. Hitler allowed them to secure American help & retain hope by sending a ridiculous force to vital Africa (while he sent a huge force to Yugoslavia & Greece), which was poorly supplied through Tripoli.
The British also knew Germany couldn't invade England, and proved that the Luftwaffe was incapable of a long term sustained air assault on Britain. With or without US help those facts are unalterable within history.
Hitler, via the U-boat war and Dönetz' ignoring Hitler's admonition, not that Hitler did anything to stop him except say "no," not to press the US in the Atlantic. Instead, Dönetz kept sending his boats further out into the Atlantic antagonizing the US and eventually getting them in a defacto shooting war by his actions.


Quote:
Had Hitler sent a larger force supplied through Tunisia, it would have proptly wiped out the British in N Africa. That & the entry of the USSR into the axis & the subsequent entry of Spain & loss of the middleeast would have cut off American help immediately, without which British shipping was doomed.
Had Hitler done that, he'd have had to occupy Vichy France, watch want was left of the French Fleet steam to England and join the Allies, have all overseas French possessions fall into the hands of the Allies rather than be neutral, and had to fight Vichy forces in France and North Africa for control of those territories.
So, the "...it would have promptly wiped out the British..." is nothing but BS that ignores the political and strategic reality of the situation. It also ignores that Germany would still be totally dependent on Italian shipping and trucks to move their supplies, two factors that overwhelm the lack of port space.
As it was, the Afrika Korps got most of the supplies they needed. But, these sat on piers and in warehouses in Tripoli for lack of a means to move them to where they were needed. At Alamein it was taking the Germans 8 gallons of gasoline to move one gallon for use by combat units.
The German problem was a lack of appreciation for logistics. Rommel's head of supply on his staff was a mere major...

Quote:
It was not Winnie's tough speeches, but free American goods, ships & warships escorting them & planes sinking U-boats, which allowed Britain to survive.
No, it was good British strategy based on almost centuries of application, along with Germany's lack of a navy, lack of the necessary materials and manpower to sustain an air campaign, and general strategic and logistical incompetence that did.

Quote:
Moreover, with the USSR in the axis, Japan can promptly invade British Borneo, Malaya-Singapore & then Ceylon, without fearing the US declaring war.
You have no way of proving the US wouldn't enter a war with Japan if they did that. In fact, it is extremely likely the US would have. If Japan thought they could have invaded those locations and not end up in a war with the US what reason can you give for them not doing so?
After all, none of the US possessions in the Pacific were economically viable additions to the Japanese economy. The only reason for an invasion was to prevent their use by the US in retaliation as part of a US-Japanese war.

Quote:
Hell, even if your tough Limeys had not surrendered & chose to starve, with middle east oil, allies & access to attack Baku from Iran, Germany would have defeated the USSR.
Why would they starve? Why wouldn't they have oil? Germany couldn't defeat the USSR historically. The Germans lost.
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  #1086  
Old 13 Feb 16, 19:35
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You got your wishes.

I declare the thread closed & leave the forum.
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  #1087  
Old 13 Feb 16, 20:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
You got your wishes.

I declare the thread closed & leave the forum.
Well, for what it's worth, with the exception of one post you made which I found easily, and totally trolling and offensive, I tried hard to be civil and let you have your say. I might not agree with a word of it, but I wouldn't stop you from having it.
Further, as I told you personally, I never negative repped you and it would have taken far more than anything you did to get such from me. I didn't mind making rebuttals to your comments and would have continued to do so.

Good luck in going elsewhere. I wish you the best.

T. A. Gardner.
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  #1088  
Old 13 Feb 16, 20:52
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There's a reason I stay out of la-la land threads like this, and I'm reminded here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
So? There was no "...more dastardly attack than PH,..." regarding the now Vichy French Fleet. The British tried negotiating a position with France over their fleet. The French refused. The British warned them they'd respond by attacking and did.
First, there was no Vichy government at the time the RN attacked, so no "Vichy" French fleet. Secondly, the terms of the negotiations were basically "give us your ships or we'll sink them"....sounds more like an ultimatum than a negotiation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
So, show us sources and evidence that the attack on the Vichy French Fleet by the RN and Britain were surprise attacks or retract the statement and apologize.
A surprise attack? No, certainly not in the Pearl Harbor sense. Unwarranted? Absolutely. No one was getting the fleet...not the Brits, the Germans, nor the Italians. No need to counter one BS misconception with another BS misconception.
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  #1089  
Old 13 Feb 16, 21:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asterix View Post
There's a reason I stay out of la-la land threads like this, and I'm reminded here.
First, there was no Vichy government at the time the RN attacked, so no "Vichy" French fleet. Secondly, the terms of the negotiations were basically "give us your ships or we'll sink them"....sounds more like an ultimatum than a negotiation.
Well, it really was, but that doesn't make it a sneak attack or surprise attack as Draco stated. It may not have been the best way to handle things and could be seen as an Ally turning on another, but that doesn't make it dastardly or blindsiding them.

Quote:
A surprise attack? No, certainly not in the Pearl Harbor sense. Unwarranted? Absolutely. No one was getting the fleet...not the Brits, the Germans, nor the Italians. No need to counter one BS misconception with another BS misconception.
Unwarranted? With hindsight you're absolutely right. The British erred on the side of caution and overreacted to the situation. But, if you look at things from the view of those at the time the British could be said to be scared $h!+less that the Germans might end up with an actual fleet that could pose something of a challenge to the RN.
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  #1090  
Old 14 Feb 16, 08:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Andy, the only reason I've continued on this is I keep getting to look up arcane stuff I really haven't thought about in a long time. It makes for interesting review of a bunch of obscure WW 2 topics I rarely deal with, like Panama.

It was a backwater during the war and is pretty much ignored as a topic of any detail because of that. But, I've now learned the details of the coast defense system, other bases there, what the US had for naval forces in the area, etc.
That has proved interesting as it demonstrates just how much effort the US put into defending that canal which is really located such that none of the US's enemies really had any way to do anything to damage or take it.
Hi Terry

Its an element but sadly it's an element lost to the wider and more sane elements of the forum!

Better you started a thread about say Panama where sane people could read, discuss and add content, than troll through pages of utter crap posted by MrD. You've got a lot of valuable and interesting information to impart with others, yet a huge % of it is wasted along with your time and energy dealing with a madman.
He's not here to learn or impart knowledge, he's here to troll & bait with provocative threads and unsubstantiated rubbish.

Regards and hope to see your posts in the more sane historical areas of the forum.

Andy H
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  #1091  
Old 14 Feb 16, 14:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Well, it really was, but that doesn't make it a sneak attack or surprise attack as Draco stated. It may not have been the best way to handle things and could be seen as an Ally turning on another, but that doesn't make it dastardly or blindsiding them.



Unwarranted? With hindsight you're absolutely right. The British erred on the side of caution and overreacted to the situation. But, if you look at things from the view of those at the time the British could be said to be scared $h!+less that the Germans might end up with an actual fleet that could pose something of a challenge to the RN.


I think that this assessment of the British action is more or less spot on. At the time, after what had happened in the previous two months, all the previous assumptions the British had made about strategy in the event of a European or World War had been rendered completely out of date, and there was certainly an element of 'what do we do now?' within British government and military circles.

With regard to the French fleet, the British knew that whilst Darlan was very protective about 'Honneur', he was also something of an Anglophobe.

In retrospect, it is fairly apparent that he was a man of his word. When the Germans did try to seize French vessels in Toulon in November 1942, he ordered them disabled, and few fell into German hands in an operational state.

However, in July 1940, no one in authority in Britain could be sure how the Vichy regime would behave, and, more importantly, what Darlan might or might not do.

In short, and in retrospect, an over-reaction by the British, but given the situation in late June and early July 1940, I believe it was an understandable one, although I might possibly be leaving myself open to a charge of patriotic bias!

As to comparing the British actions to Pearl Harbor, as best I recall the Japanese did not sit outside Pearl for most of the day, offering various suggestions to the United States in the hope that shooting could be avoided.
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