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  #61  
Old 28 Dec 15, 15:59
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Actually, the Repulse was pretty poorly armed at the time. She had 8 4" single AA guns that were optically aimed at the mount without director control, a handful of 20mm, and 3 8 barrel pompoms arranged where generally only one could bear on a target. That is very weak for 1941.
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  #62  
Old 28 Dec 15, 15:59
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
No, it can't. In naval combat things are different from providing amphibious fire support. With no fixed land marks to reference all the plane can do is call the fall of shot. It's still up to the ship to make corrections and adjust fire.
A ship with a decent radar and optics with a good fire control computer / plotting system makes aerial observation of fall of shot unnecessary, hence why nobody bothered to do it during WW 2 naval engagements.
It is also to the advantage of the firing ship to have more gun barrels and faster rates of fire so that the interval time between salvos is reduced to the shortest time possible. Thus, a single slow firing gun is worthless in a naval engagement.

As for invading... If anything you proposed is going up against US coast defenses at any major port or point of importance, they are going to be blown out of the water in short order.
Also, there is the distinct possibility that the defenders have aircraft available so the equivalent of a piper cub fluttering around unmolested is actually very much a delusion in many cases. Since the attackers normally won't have any air power at all outside those few nearly worthless, unarmed, float planes, if they do have air power available it's the attackers who will be facing bombing, strafing, and shooting down of their few observation aircraft.
Coastal guns did not stop a single major invasion supported by large numbers of heavy naval guns & airplanes throughout WW II. The only cases in which they worked were the ill conceived first attack on Wake & the raids on Tobruk & Dieppe (all of which had lousy naval artillery & air support & faced enemy planes),

With large numbers of axis fighters & bombers in Ireland, Belgium, etc, & in captured airfields in France & Britain the fluttering Cubs are so safe as the Storchs & Hs 123 were in Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, the USSR, etc, The very few Hurricanes, Spits, Battles, Bolton-Paul, Blenheims, MS.406, Caudron, etc, in the Channel area on the other hand are wreckage.
The very few surviving planes in the area would be busy trying to stop the invasion, saving other planes or escaping for their lives, the last thing in their minds would do be helping the navy.
The only reason Boise, Savannah, etc, lost their spotter planes in Sicily (but still were useful, guided by ground spotters) was lousy allied air cover on the first day around Gela. Monty got better air support than Patton, because he was much closer to Malta.
BTW it is interesting that while Mac, etc, used a CA as his HQ most of the time, Patton got a lousy ship in Sicily.

Ever since artillery was invented, an accurate, well guided & manned single piece of artillery can do a lot of damage. To wit the big gun in Constantinople, Paris gun in WW I, the rail guns in Anzio, Sevastopol, etc,
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  #63  
Old 28 Dec 15, 16:01
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
A 7 or 8" gun can easily deal with a light cruiser if it starts firing at 30 km. Actually, had Graf Spee had one such gun when she opened fire at closer range, it would have been more likely to sink a cruiser than the 28 cm guns, because the smaller shell would explode inside the ship, instead of going through.
Hah, not likely Though I suppose that yes if you had a 8 inch gun and some how had the best gunnery crew in the world, you might be able to get hits at that range, but it would be unreliable at best and at worst a matter of shear dumb luck, As Doveton states max range is not to be confused with effective range, if you can fire out to 30k yards yes you can hit something at that range but actually doing so requires a bit of luck, even with WW2 era radar, as you have the built in accuracy of the gun to deal with, the action of it passing through wind, and the inherent inaccuracy of what ever fire control you happen to be using, even Radar can have a notable deviation at longer distances.

In the end your 8 inch shell at 30,000 yards can have a impact zone of well over 200 yards, heck a modern 155mm Howitzer has a impact zone radius upwards of at lest 50 meters at 25ish km. And that is for a modern "dumb" round (smart ones are a tenth of that), WW2 weapons are not going to be quite as accurate.

Look a single 8 inch gun no mater how much it out ranges it's adversary's is out gunned by 3 or so 6 inch guns, which even older case mated cruisers should be able to bring to bare, the range advantage is also not going to be as much as your looking for due to accuracy problems at longer ranges. Shooting at 30,000 yard likely is going to be a notable waist of ammo as the impact zone is likely going to be bigger than a late WW2 era aircraft carrier in size.

Yes you can mitigate the inaccuracy to an extent, but that takes time, time in which the target is either getting away or getting closer... You could also get more accurate fire controls, but that's costly and may result in a ship that can not be hidden as easily (can not disguise it as something else).
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  #64  
Old 28 Dec 15, 16:09
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Coastal guns did not stop a single major invasion supported by large numbers of heavy naval guns & airplanes throughout WW II. The only cases in which they worked were the ill conceived first attack on Wake & the raids on Tobruk & Dieppe (all of which had lousy naval artillery & air support & faced enemy planes),
Demonstrate one amphibious assault made against a position with serious coast defenses. The biggest guns at any were in the vicinity of 6" / 15cm, and most of the time far less.
US coast defenses generally consisted of 12" and larger guns as their main batteries. Hence why the Japanese didn't try to force Manila bay but landed elsewhere where there were light or no coast defenses in the PI. Normandy? The biggest guns were supposedly 155mm but they weren't installed.
North Africa at Casablanca the biggest coast defense guns were 19cm.
Island invasions in the Pacific never saw anything larger than a 6" gun.
So, your commentary above is meaningless.

Quote:
With large numbers of axis fighters & bombers in Ireland, Belgium, etc, & in captured airfields in France & Britain the fluttering Cubs are so safe as the Storchs & Hs 123 were in Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, the USSR, etc, The very few Hurricanes, Spits, Battles, Bolton-Paul, Blenheims, MS.406, Caudron, etc, in the Channel area on the other hand are wreckage.
The very few surviving planes in the area would be busy trying to stop the invasion, saving other planes or escaping for their lives, the last thing in their minds would do be helping the navy.
The only reason Boise, Savannah, etc, lost their spotter planes in Sicily (but still were useful, guided by ground spotters) was lousy allied air cover on the first day around Gela. Monty got better air support than Patton, because he was much closer to Malta.
BTW it is interesting that while Mac, etc, used a CA as his HQ most of the time, Patton got a lousy ship in Sicily.
Those airplanes won't be there in May 1939 when you start this insanity. The Luftwaffe will be flying from German soil.
Actually, the spotter planes in Sicily were mostly damaged by AA fire (both enemy and friendly), or by operational things like damage landing on rough water, etc. Aside from that, the cruisers did have sufficient aircraft that some spotters were airborne throughout the invasion period.
Patton was ashore in Sicily. In fact, he was near Gela and personally had the ensign assigned for fire support call in fire on a tank column he observed himself.

Quote:
Ever since artillery was invented, an accurate, well guided & manned single piece of artillery can do a lot of damage. To wit the big gun in Constantinople, Paris gun in WW I, the rail guns in Anzio, Sevastopol, etc,
You are wrong, and it's not worth my time to prove it again to you.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 28 Dec 15 at 16:25..
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  #65  
Old 28 Dec 15, 16:11
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Actually, the Repulse was pretty poorly armed at the time. She had 8 4" single AA guns that were optically aimed at the mount without director control, a handful of 20mm, and 3 8 barrel pompoms arranged where generally only one could bear on a target. That is very weak for 1941.
As were the BBs in PH.

Let's assume that Japan does not attack PH, but only invades the PI & 4 BBs & 2 CAs are sent as they are to defend the PI. How far do You think they would have arrived without adequate air cover? The slow BB would doom the fast CV & any carrier planes lost defending the BB would leave the CV even more vulnerable in enemy waters. It's the worst possible combination.
The only way to take advantage of the BB is to have them in Java, Sumatra, etc, with strong air cover by land based planes. Since they did not do that, the next best thing is to have them sunk in shallow waters.
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  #66  
Old 28 Dec 15, 16:25
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
As were the BBs in PH.

Let's assume that Japan does not attack PH, but only invades the PI & 4 BBs & 2 CAs are sent as they are to defend the PI. How far do You think they would have arrived without adequate air cover? The slow BB would doom the fast CV & any carrier planes lost defending the BB would leave the CV even more vulnerable in enemy waters. It's the worst possible combination.
The only way to take advantage of the BB is to have them in Java, Sumatra, etc, with strong air cover by land based planes. Since they did not do that, the next best thing is to have them sunk in shallow waters.
Except there are no battleships at Pearl Harbor in 1939. They are at San Diego or San Francisco. There might be one or two at Bremerton Washington as well.

The US WP Orange would not see a small fleet sent to relieve the PI. The US would let it fall instead and then do what it did historically... Smash its way across the Pacific with overwhelming force once the US was ready to take things back.
The USN didn't operate carriers with slow battleships even in 1939. So, that's a non starter too.
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  #67  
Old 28 Dec 15, 17:18
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Demonstrate one amphibious assault made against a position with serious coast defenses. The biggest guns at any were in the vicinity of 6" / 15cm, and most of the time far less.
US coast defenses generally consisted of 12" and larger guns as their main batteries. Hence why the Japanese didn't try to force Manila bay but landed elsewhere where there were light or no coast defenses in the PI. Normandy? The biggest guns were supposedly 155mm but they weren't installed.
North Africa at Casablanca the biggest coast defense guns were 19cm.
Island invasions in the Pacific never saw anything larger than a 6" gun.
So, your commentary above is meaningless.
The Marcouf (Crisbecq) Battery had 3x 210mm guns at the time of the Normandy invasion, and this battery quite likely was what sunk USS Corry (DD-463) that day (after action reports from her captain states they where hit by two or three 8 inch shells, which knocked out electrical power and broke the keel, German reports said battery was engaging a Destroyer and hit it at around the same time the US reported getting hit, though the Germans at first though it was a cruiser).

The Battery at Longues-sur-Mer had 152mm guns, the Houlgate Battery also had 155mm guns. But by in large out side of these and a few other 15cm batterys (some of where where not in action that day for various reasons) where the heaviest guns in the Normandy area with out getting into Le Havre or Cherbourg.
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Old 28 Dec 15, 17:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Coastal guns did not stop a single major invasion supported by large numbers of heavy naval guns & airplanes throughout WW II. The only cases in which they worked were the ill conceived first attack on Wake & the raids on Tobruk & Dieppe (all of which had lousy naval artillery & air support & faced enemy planes),

With large numbers of axis fighters & bombers in Ireland, Belgium, etc, & in captured airfields in France & Britain the fluttering Cubs are so safe as the Storchs & Hs 123 were in Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, the USSR, etc, The very few Hurricanes, Spits, Battles, Bolton-Paul, Blenheims, MS.406, Caudron, etc, in the Channel area on the other hand are wreckage.
The very few surviving planes in the area would be busy trying to stop the invasion, saving other planes or escaping for their lives, the last thing in their minds would do be helping the navy.
The only reason Boise, Savannah, etc, lost their spotter planes in Sicily (but still were useful, guided by ground spotters) was lousy allied air cover on the first day around Gela. Monty got better air support than Patton, because he was much closer to Malta.
BTW it is interesting that while Mac, etc, used a CA as his HQ most of the time, Patton got a lousy ship in Sicily.

Ever since artillery was invented, an accurate, well guided & manned single piece of artillery can do a lot of damage. To wit the big gun in Constantinople, Paris gun in WW I, the rail guns in Anzio, Sevastopol, etc,
BTW it is interesting that while Mac, etc, used a CA as his HQ most of the time, Patton got a lousy ship in Sicily.

I assume that you mean USS Monrovia (APA 31). If so, please be aware that she was far from a 'lousy ship' but an attack transport which had been extensively converted with the necessary communications equipment to act as a command ship.

Rear Admiral H. Kent Hewitt, USN, commander of the Western Task Force during the invasion of Sicily, used the same ship at the same time.

I suppose I should add that, once Allied forces were successfully landed, Patton, to the best of my knowledge, also moved ashore.

I assume that, as usual, you were ignorant of the fact.

Last edited by Doveton Sturdee; 28 Dec 15 at 18:03..
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  #69  
Old 28 Dec 15, 18:06
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Demonstrate one amphibious assault made against a position with serious coast defenses. The biggest guns at any were in the vicinity of 6" / 15cm, and most of the time far less.
US coast defenses generally consisted of 12" and larger guns as their main batteries. Hence why the Japanese didn't try to force Manila bay but landed elsewhere where there were light or no coast defenses in the PI. Normandy? The biggest guns were supposedly 155mm but they weren't installed.
North Africa at Casablanca the biggest coast defense guns were 19cm.
Island invasions in the Pacific never saw anything larger than a 6" gun.
So, your commentary above is meaningless.



Those airplanes won't be there in May 1939 when you start this insanity. The Luftwaffe will be flying from German soil.
Actually, the spotter planes in Sicily were mostly damaged by AA fire (both enemy and friendly), or by operational things like damage landing on rough water, etc. Aside from that, the cruisers did have sufficient aircraft that some spotters were airborne throughout the invasion period.
Patton was ashore in Sicily. In fact, he was near Gela and personally had the ensign assigned for fire support call in fire on a tank column he observed himself.



You are wrong, and it's not worth my time to prove it again to you.
As You pointed out even large coastal guns (with their ridiculous range) are simply ouflanked, as in Singapore, Oranienburg, Sevastopol, etc, or as You didn't point out, they're destroyed as they were all along the French coast (where they did nothing to many BBs, despite long duels in the Atlantic & Med). They never stopped anything, even the most formidable, turreted ones, much less ridiculous American coastal guns with their crews exposed to air attack, shelling, mortar rounds or even a hand grenade in a pit, where any explosion or ricocheting strafing would kill everybody. What is the point of placing a few coastal guns in Oahu & leaving a huge area completely undefended & exposed to amphibious or airborne landings (exactly the same mistake as in SIngapore or the French coast)? Exactly the same applies to the coastal guns in Panama, etc,

Hey, I forhot to mention the cool guns of Navarone, apparently blown up by a few brilliant British special forces. Another British wet dream.
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  #70  
Old 28 Dec 15, 18:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
The Marcouf (Crisbecq) Battery had 3x 210mm guns at the time of the Normandy invasion, and this battery quite likely was what sunk USS Corry (DD-463) that day (after action reports from her captain states they where hit by two or three 8 inch shells, which knocked out electrical power and broke the keel, German reports said battery was engaging a Destroyer and hit it at around the same time the US reported getting hit, though the Germans at first though it was a cruiser).

The Battery at Longues-sur-Mer had 152mm guns, the Houlgate Battery also had 155mm guns. But by in large out side of these and a few other 15cm batterys (some of where where not in action that day for various reasons) where the heaviest guns in the Normandy area with out getting into Le Havre or Cherbourg.
But, that pales compared to US coast defenses where, as I pointed out batteries start at 12" gun and go up to 16". Even secondary locations typically had 8" to 10" guns at a minimum. The mobile batteries were typically 155mm.
It was understood that the coast defenses needed guns that could match those of the heaviest ships afloat to be able to really deal with them. Nobody else really had the resources to put into such coast defense systems.
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Old 28 Dec 15, 18:18
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But, that pales compared to US coast defenses where, as I pointed out batteries start at 12" gun and go up to 16". Even secondary locations typically had 8" to 10" guns at a minimum. The mobile batteries were typically 155mm.
It was understood that the coast defenses needed guns that could match those of the heaviest ships afloat to be able to really deal with them. Nobody else really had the resources to put into such coast defense systems.
As I mentioned American coastal defenses were crap compared to Sevastopol, the Atlantic wall, etc, only You can find a crew which has to exit its bunker to load the gun in a pit a formidable gun. Don't forget also the smoke from the tanks in a prolonged attack.

Good look moving around & manning 155 mm guns under complete enemy air domination in Oahu, that is if the Japanese want to invade it. All they need is Kauai, Lahaina rpads, etc, to continue bombing & render PH completely moot.
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Old 28 Dec 15, 18:24
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
As You pointed out even large coastal guns (with their ridiculous range) are simply ouflanked, as in Singapore, Oranienburg, Sevastopol, etc, or as You didn't point out, they're destroyed as they were all along the French coast (where they did nothing to many BBs, despite long duels in the Atlantic & Med). They never stopped anything, even the most formidable, turreted ones, much less ridiculous American coastal guns with their crews exposed to air attack, shelling, mortar rounds or even a hand grenade in a pit, where any explosion or ricocheting strafing would kill everybody. What is the point of placing a few coastal guns in Oahu & leaving a huge area completely undefended & exposed to amphibious or airborne landings (exactly the same mistake as in SIngapore or the French coast)? Exactly the same applies to the coastal guns in Panama, etc,

Hey, I forhot to mention the cool guns of Navarone, apparently blown up by a few brilliant British special forces. Another British wet dream.
Actually, from memory (and I haven't seen the film for years,) I believe that the actual attack on the guns is undertaken by a team of three. The commander is American, and the other two are Greek & British.

Despite the improbable storyline, I would venture to propose that it is still far more believable than the things you post.
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  #73  
Old 28 Dec 15, 18:27
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
As I mentioned American coastal defenses were crap compared to Sevastopol, the Atlantic wall, etc, only You can find a crew which has to exit its bunker to load the gun in a pit a formidable gun. Don't forget also the smoke from the tanks in a prolonged attack.

Good look moving around & manning 155 mm guns under complete enemy air domination in Oahu, that is if the Japanese want to invade it. All they need is Kauai, Lahaina rpads, etc, to continue bombing & render PH completely moot.
And you are dead, flat, absolutely wrong. US coast defense batteries are far stronger on the whole than the Atlantic wall was.



Sevastopol is the same way. Biggest guns there were 12" in a couple of old battleship turrets. For a major defense of a serious port, Sevastopol is weak compared to the Harbor Defenses of say New York or Pearl Harbor, equivalent important US ports.

As for "complete air domination of Oahu" you are delusional. I want you to detail how that will happen. Reading your reply will not only provide everyone a good laugh, but will be interesting fantasy reading...
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Old 28 Dec 15, 18:36
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Dracoco Dracoco is offline
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Dracoco has a little shameless behaviour in the past [-1 to -99]
It took Manstein (who had poor air & no naval support) 8 months to defeat the turreted guns in Sevastopol & only thanks to 7 ton shells from an 80 cm gun which shattered magazines 100 ft below the surface.

The poor exposed crews in Oahu & Panama would last minutes under dive bombing & strafing.

OMG, OMG, OMG, I was forgetting to mention the uselessness of coastal guns in the most valuable real estate, the umbilical cord to success in WW II, which alas, was invaded only when it was utterly pointless to do so: PANTELLERIA.
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  #75  
Old 28 Dec 15, 18:39
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BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Even the much faster Repulse & PoW, with better AAA easily bit the dust so soon as they engaged the enemy. The allies were throroughly trounced throughout the DEI. Without a strong airforce in Java & Sumatra battle wagons are easy fodder for torpedo planes & longe lance torpedoes from DD, cruisers & BB & sub torpedoes. Houston, Exeter, etc, had better AAA, speed & maneuverability than the old BBs, but in small numbers they were lost without doing much damage, much less interfere with Japanese expansion. The most successful naval action in the first months was performed by 4 stackers against troop transports & cargo ships & DD remained intact in PH.
The battleships would have made a much bigger impact than the Allied cruisers. The whole reason the Japanese wanted them out of action was because to Japanese naval planners, the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor was "like a knife leveled at Japan's throat."

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In a sense, damaging the BB in shallow waters was a blessing for USN crews, which would have perished if attacked in deeper & enemy waters with much greater casualties & losing the ships permanently.
In a sense, it was. Had the ships been out to sea there would have been no way to recover them.

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One of the BB was stranded & others received minimum damage in dry dock.
Two were lost outright (three if you count Utah), and the least damaged of the bunch was reintroduced to active duty 6 months later. You call that "minimal damage?"

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The Pacific fleet had those BB in action during the battle of Midway,
No they didn't. See "USS Maryland" above. That was the first ship to be repaired.

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Yamamoto was extremely depressed & disappointed when he learnt that the carriers, fuel farms, etc, were untouched because the planes had attacked only once & hauled butt, wasting the complete surprise completely, so he refused to celebrate the °victory" with all the other ecstatic, oblivious officers.
You're twisting facts again. Yamamoto "sank in apparent depression" because he realized that, without a declaration of war, he'd just launched the first battle of a war to the death he knew could only end with his country in ruins. He had too much respect for American industrial might not to foresee any other outcome. It had comparatively little do do with Nagumo's decision to withdraw and much more to do with the fact that he'd just woken the 'sleeping giant' with a stab in the back.
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