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  #46  
Old 28 Dec 15, 12:32
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I already mentioned in other threads than even Prinz Eugen's 20 cm guns were very effective against tanks at 30 km. The 28 cm guns of Graf Spee were effective at a longer range. Spee opened fire too late because she did not recognize enemy ships as cruisers until it was too late. It assumed they were cargo ships or DD & expected to sink them with 6" guns.

I wrote that at Spee's 28 cm gun' range she was completely out of range of the 8" guns, not at closer range. I also said that within extreme range of the 8" guns (not at the 20,000 yards they opened fire) her armor was invulnerable. It would have been absurd for Spee not to open fire at longer range, had she known that those were cruisers. But then again I'm dealing with challenged readers, who read what they want, not what I write & will always miss the point, especially the British & American "naval experts".

It would be nice to get back to the thread in point.
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  #47  
Old 28 Dec 15, 12:37
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Actually, had Graf Spee had one such gun when she opened fire at closer range, it would have been more likely to sink a cruiser than the 28 cm guns, because the smaller shell would explode inside the ship, instead of going through.
Do you have an cites for these many unexploded shells that went right through the British cruisers? I found where several hits on turrets put them out of commission, but nowhere do I find reference to any serious damage to Ajax and Achilles.
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  #48  
Old 28 Dec 15, 12:41
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I already mentioned in other threads than even Prinz Eugen's 20 cm guns were very effective against tanks at 30 km. The 28 cm guns of Graf Spee were effective at a longer range. Spee opened fire too late because she did not recognize enemy ships as cruisers until it was too late. It assumed they were cargo ships or DD & expected to sink them with 6" guns.

I wrote that at Spee's 28 cm gun' range she was completely out of range of the 8" guns, not at closer range. I also said that within extreme range of the 8" guns (not at the 20,000 yards they opened fire) her armor was invulnerable. It would have been absurd for Spee not to open fire at longer range, had she known that those were cruisers. But then again I'm dealing with challenged readers, who read what they want, not what I write & will always miss the point, especially the British & American "naval experts".

It would be nice to get back to the thread in point.
She didn't think they were DD's, she thought they were one cruisers and two DD's. So much for warship silhouette recognition. You're the one who keeps changing the topic, so don't try to chastise us for following along and poking holes in your story. We don't agree with you because we read what real historians write, not your ridiculous drivel.
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  #49  
Old 28 Dec 15, 12:48
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Going through & through does not cause serious damage, just small holes, exploding or ricocheting does. Ajax, Exeter & Achilles wer left like sieves, but promptly patched up. Being a naval expert, you'll have no problem finding that info.

Another example of shells going through unexploded is the heavy shells from the 6 BBs in Surigao (where only a few of the BB actually fired) leaving an IJN cruiser & DD cribbled, but able to repair damage & withdraw, so they had to be finished by planes the following day. The same thing happened to some armored vehicles, tanks & tank destroyers (like the Hellcat) with thin armor, which survived unexploded shells going through & through (instead of ricocheting or exploding inside).
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  #50  
Old 28 Dec 15, 13:00
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
A 7 or 8" gun can easily deal with a light cruiser if it starts firing at 30 km. Actually, had Graf Spee had one such gun when she opened fire at closer range, it would have been more likely to sink a cruiser than the 28 cm guns, because the smaller shell would explode inside the ship, instead of going through.
Yet another subject about which you know nothing, i.e. Naval Gunnery.

Firstly, 30kms is 18.6 miles. The maximum effective range for a WW2 eight inch gun is 20000 yards. By maximum effective range I mean the range at which there is a realistic possibility of hitting the target ship. Early in the war, Warspite is recorded as hitting Guilio Cesare at 26000 yards with a 15 inch shell, but this was exceptional. You can happily blast away to your heart's content at 30kms, but don't expect to hit the target ship.

Secondly, why do you think warships at the time fired their main guns in salvos? It wasn't some strange whim on the part of naval officers, but essential if the Gunnery Officer was to be able to observe fall of shot in order to bracket his target and obtain straddles & hits on it. With single shots, this is almost impossible at any sort of range. I would recommend a book called 'The Bismarck Chase' by an American author, Robert Winklareth, which has an excellent appendix on WW2 naval gunnery, but I appreciate that you refuse to read books which don't agree with your views. Presumably this doesn't leave many to choose from?

Thirdly, Graf Spee didn't open fire at closer range; she opened fire at the longest range at which her Gunnery Officer felt he had a realistic chance of hitting Exeter. Why do you think all four ships, with three different main calibre gun sizes, opened fire within four minutes of each other? You appear to confuse maximum range with maximum effective range. I wonder why that doesn't surprise me?
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  #51  
Old 28 Dec 15, 13:41
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I already mentioned in other threads than even Prinz Eugen's 20 cm guns were very effective against tanks at 30 km. The 28 cm guns of Graf Spee were effective at a longer range. Spee opened fire too late because she did not recognize enemy ships as cruisers until it was too late. It assumed they were cargo ships or DD & expected to sink them with 6" guns.

I wrote that at Spee's 28 cm gun' range she was completely out of range of the 8" guns, not at closer range. I also said that within extreme range of the 8" guns (not at the 20,000 yards they opened fire) her armor was invulnerable. It would have been absurd for Spee not to open fire at longer range, had she known that those were cruisers. But then again I'm dealing with challenged readers, who read what they want, not what I write & will always miss the point, especially the British & American "naval experts".

It would be nice to get back to the thread in point.
The 28 cm guns of Graf Spee were effective at a longer range. Spee opened fire too late because she did not recognize enemy ships as cruisers until it was too late. It assumed they were cargo ships or DD & expected to sink them with 6" guns.

Absolute rubbish. At 0552 on 13 December, 1940, a lookout aboard Graf Spee spotted two masts on the horizon. He alerted the Officer of the Watch, who in turn notified Langsdorff. Langsdorff had Action Stations sounded, and by the time his Gunnery Officer, Fregattenkapitan Ascher, had reached the DCT he lookout reported two further pairs of masts.

By 0600, Graf Spee was cleared for action, and the first pair of masts had been identified as the cruiser Exeter. (For those interested, Exeter was a 'one off' and a fairly distinctive ship. Presumably Langsdorff had several copies of 'Janes' aboard). The lookouts were uncertain as to the identities of the other two vessels, which Langsdorff assumed to be destroyers screening the cruiser. At no time did Langsdorff believe that the two unidentified vessels were merchantmen, although he did consider the possibility that the British force was escorting a convoy. At 0605, however, as the two forces continued to close, lookouts identified the other two vessels as 'Ajax' class light cruisers.

At this point, the die was cast. The British force split into two separate units, both with an eight knot speed advantage, and Langsdorff was obliged to fight if the British so chose, as if he turned Spee's stern to them, he would only be able to use the three guns of his aft 11 inch turret, which would be insufficient for effective fire control.

In simple terms even you might understand, Exeter was recognised from the outset, and Ajax & Achilles at an early stage. As Exeter, sent by Harwood to investigate Graf Spee's smoke, only identified her as a pocket battleship at 0616, Langsdorff had ample time to take whatever action he chose.

who read what they want, not what I write & will always miss the point, especially the British & American "naval experts".


Probably the funniest thing you have written for some time. Actually, I read every word of what you write, which is why I spend more time than I should correcting your most obvious infantile and cretinous errors.

Tell me again about the 8 inch gun opening fire at 18.6 miles range, and sinking everything in sight!!
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  #52  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:02
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
The purpose of the raid was to destroy the carriers with a concentrated force. Much easier than it would be later when they struck unannounced & accompanied by the carriers deployed fromthe Atlantic & coming out of the shipyards.
The purpose of the raid was to neutralize the US Pacific Fleet's ability to interfere with the southward expansion of the Japanese Empire into the "Southern Resource Area." This objective was achieved.

Quote:
You don't waste fuel waiting at anchor in completely empty Lahaina Roads, etc,
That is ludicrous. You do realize that you just suggested anchoring the entire Kido Butai right in the middle of (hostile) Hawai'ian waters, don't you?

Quote:
...for the carriers after destroying the fuel farms, etc,
It was a mistake in hindsight, but it wasn't so clear at the time. The longer Nagumo waited, the more vulnerable his force was and the more chances the Americans would have to prepare a response.

Quote:
you do waste a lot of fuel & fire power sailing all the way from Japan to Hawaii with BB, etc, to damage a few outdated ships where they can be repaired & leaving the carriers, fuel tanks, docks & submarine base unscathed.
The Pacific Fleet was neutralized in spectacular fashion and could not resist the push into Southeast Asia. The fuel tanks, submarine pens, and dry docks were of secondary concern and while destroying them would have helped in the long run, Nagumo didn't have the benefits of hindsight on his side preferred to err on the side of caution.
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  #53  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:14
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Do you have an cites for these many unexploded shells that went right through the British cruisers? I found where several hits on turrets put them out of commission, but nowhere do I find reference to any serious damage to Ajax and Achilles.
You won't, because the RN records only refer to one shell passing through one of the cruisers without exploding. This was a hit on Exeter early in the battle which went through the deck abaft of B turret but didn't explode.

Certainly, Exeter was heavily damaged but managed to make the Falklands. At one time it was suggested that she be left there unrepaired for the rest of the war, but of course this didn't happen.

Achilles was not hit at all, although she sustained some shrapnel damage to B turret and her bridge & DCT. I believe there were four deaths and the captain was wounded in the legs. As to leaking like sieves, Achilles remained in service, latterly with the New Zealand Division of the RN, until she was take in hand for a short refit in March 1940.

Ajax was more heavily damaged, sustaining two 11 inch hits with, I believe, seven deaths. X & Y turrets were put out of action during the battle, and her mainmast was broken. Again, for a ship leaking like a sieve, she remained in service until March 1940, when she received a longer refit which involved the provision of radar.

As we know, Coco the Clown makes things up to suit himself. Perhaps we should all agree that the Plate was a German triumph, if by doing so it would make him go away.
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  #54  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
Yet another subject about which you know nothing, i.e. Naval Gunnery.

Firstly, 30kms is 18.6 miles. The maximum effective range for a WW2 eight inch gun is 20000 yards. By maximum effective range I mean the range at which there is a realistic possibility of hitting the target ship. Early in the war, Warspite is recorded as hitting Guilio Cesare at 26000 yards with a 15 inch shell, but this was exceptional. You can happily blast away to your heart's content at 30kms, but don't expect to hit the target ship.

Secondly, why do you think warships at the time fired their main guns in salvos? It wasn't some strange whim on the part of naval officers, but essential if the Gunnery Officer was to be able to observe fall of shot in order to bracket his target and obtain straddles & hits on it. With single shots, this is almost impossible at any sort of range. I would recommend a book called 'The Bismarck Chase' by an American author, Robert Winklareth, which has an excellent appendix on WW2 naval gunnery, but I appreciate that you refuse to read books which don't agree with your views. Presumably this doesn't leave many to choose from?

Thirdly, Graf Spee didn't open fire at closer range; she opened fire at the longest range at which her Gunnery Officer felt he had a realistic chance of hitting Exeter. Why do you think all four ships, with three different main calibre gun sizes, opened fire within four minutes of each other? You appear to confuse maximum range with maximum effective range. I wonder why that doesn't surprise me?
A single long range gun with a spotter plane or a ground observer (like Strachwitz in Tukum, the rangers in Sicily, the Navajos in Okinawa or the Germans in Anzio) can do wonders, much more so several 28 cm guns (which fire at a higher velocity & retain energy much better than British 8" guns). What was the range in Anzio. Tobruk, the guns in Calais, etc,?
Moreover, in an invasion, the ship with a spotter plane & a single long range gun can fire indirectly at enemy ships, which w/o spotter planes (owing to axis air dominion) w/o risk of being hit by enemy indirect fire.
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  #55  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:35
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
The purpose of the raid was to neutralize the US Pacific Fleet's ability to interfere with the southward expansion of the Japanese Empire into the "Southern Resource Area." This objective was achieved.



That is ludicrous. You do realize that you just suggested anchoring the entire Kido Butai right in the middle of (hostile) Hawai'ian waters, don't you?



It was a mistake in hindsight, but it wasn't so clear at the time. The longer Nagumo waited, the more vulnerable his force was and the more chances the Americans would have to prepare a response.



The Pacific Fleet was neutralized in spectacular fashion and could not resist the push into Southeast Asia. The fuel tanks, submarine pens, and dry docks were of secondary concern and while destroying them would have helped in the long run, Nagumo didn't have the benefits of hindsight on his side preferred to err on the side of caution.
Slow BB stood a much smaller chance of interfering with Japanese expansion than subs & fast CVs, CAs, CLs & DDs with plenty of fuel from huge fuel farms, all of which remained in action. Several BBs received no or minimum damage & several heavily damaged BBs were promptly repaired. The raid did not achieve any of its main goals, yet forced the US into the war, it was a gigantic fiasco.

Anchoring the Kido Butai & refueling the DD, etc, in Lahaina Roads after sailing so far & using each carrier plane at least twice against PH (destroying even more planes, ships & the fuel farms in the last attack & capturing Kauai) makes infinitely more sense than wasting an enormous amount of fuel & the most valuable naval assets in the world just to force the largest power in the world into war & to tickle its fleet, using the planes only once & running away as if they had something to fear from a weaker force.

The IJN had the only functioning BB, torpedoes & carrier planes in the area, lots of subs & could fly in G4Ms from the Marshalls to Kauai, what the hell did it have to fear in Lahaina Roads from the USN?

Last edited by Dracoco; 28 Dec 15 at 14:44..
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  #56  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:49
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Slow BB stood a much smaller chance of interfering with Japanese expansion than subs & fast CVs, CAs, CLs & DDs with plenty of fuel from huge fuel farms, all of which remained in action. Several BBs received no or minimum damage & several heavily damaged BBs were promptly repaired. The raid did not achieve any of its main goals, yet forced the US into the war, it was a gigantic fiasco.
No. Without their battle line the USN had nothing to compete with the Japanese "big-gun" battleships and cruisers, let alone carriers. Java Sea and other similar battles should underline this fact. Not one American battleship was able to interfere with the offensive southward as the first ship to be repaired, the Maryland, was only able to reenter service in June 1942, fully 6 months after the fact. Of course by that time the Battle of Midway had already taken place and the war was about to enter its "stalemate" phase in the Solomons and New Guinea. The US BBs were out of the picture entirely until Washington and South Dakota's duel with Kirishima, and those ships weren't even at Pearl Harbor.

Thus in terms of tactics and immediate strategic goals the raid was a great success. In terms of Japan's ability to win the war, well, the outcome was in hindsight never in doubt, but it would have been hard to start the war as well-off as the Japanese did in late 1941/early 1942. The Southern Offensive was wildly successful, outstripping expectations in almost all areas and with far fewer losses than was feared, thanks in great part to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
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  #57  
Old 28 Dec 15, 14:58
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
A single long range gun with a spotter plane or a ground observer (like Strachwitz in Tukum, the rangers in Sicily, the Navajos in Okinawa or the Germans in Anzio) can do wonders, much more so several 28 cm guns (which fire at a higher velocity & retain energy much better than British 8" guns). What was the range in Anzio. Tobruk, the guns in Calais, etc,?
Moreover, in an invasion, the ship with a spotter plane & a single long range gun can fire indirectly at enemy ships, which w/o spotter planes (owing to axis air dominion) w/o risk of being hit by enemy indirect fire.
And the relevance of any of this to my comment that you are apparently totally ignorant of the principles of naval gunnery is what, pray?

Correction, delete apparently and insert obviously
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  #58  
Old 28 Dec 15, 15:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Graf Spee had a significant range & armor advantage over the 2 cruisers which she encountered. She could have opened fire long before the enemy. Moreover, at extreme range the lower impact velocity makes the 28 cm more likely to explode in the ship, instead of going through & through. Even if Graf Spee came within firing range of the heavy cruiser, at extreme range of the 8" guns, Graf Spee's armor was invulnerable.
Graf Spee's armor was not better than the cruisers it faced. Her belt was 8 cm (3 1/4") thick. The deck was 4.5cm (1 3/4") thick. Turret faces were 10 cm (4") thick. The cruisers she faced had similar or better armor.
The 6 gun 28cm battery is very much a compromise. It gives better striking power at longer ranges at the expense that its less likely to obtain hits as demonstrated in battle.
The Graf Spee's secondary battery is no better than that of the cruisers she faced and worse in one respect: It has poor fire control in as much as there is no director system for it.

Quote:
A very few Japanese carrier planes caused Lexington's demise & damaged Yorktown twice, causing its loss to a sub the second time (despite the USN carriers having intelligence regarding Japanese plans & more planes than the Japanese in either battle). Anybody but a British naval expert can see that the carriers from 6 IJN CVs can easily wipe out 2 separate USN CVs completely unprepared for combat (caught with their pants down). The only reason they did not was that Nagumo chose to run away with the strongest carrier force the IJN would ever assemble, forcing the IJN carriers to be lost piecemeal in battles with much better odds for the USN than those in Hawaii on 7 Dec, 1941.
No, Lexington's design using cast iron piping (scheduled to be replaced had she survived) did her in. The Japanese planes may have caused the damage, but Lexington exited the battle area and was in transit to Pearl Harbor when she sank.
Yorktown was damaged, but US carrier design being what it was made the repairs quick and easy making her available for Midway. She was sunk there simply because the Japanese air strike from Hiryu managed to do sufficient damage to cripple her.
The other two US CV present were never even attacked. While all four Japanese carriers present were. Oh, by the way, a major reason they were sunk was poor Japanese CAP and steaming formation doctrine.
Also, in 1939, the US Pacific Fleet was stationed on the US West coast at San Francisco and San Diego, not at Pearl Harbor so the Japanese aren't sinking anything in the way of capital ships unless one or another is on a port visit there at the time. Guess you didn't know that either.

Oh, another note: There are only FOUR large carriers available to the Japanese in 1939. The Shokaku and Zuikaku aren't complete and won't be for another year and a half.
Also, as I noted, the four that are available have the equivalent of the Boeing P-26 for fighter planes, a biplane dive bomber aboard, and a handful of B5N1 attack planes available. So, even the US using stuff like the F2B Buffalo, SBC Helldiver, and SB2U Vindicator, and TBD Devastator are at a distinct advantage in quality of aircraft at the time. The A5M Claude carries just two 7.7mm machineguns. It could empty its ammunition on a TBD and never shoot it down.
So, you can stop trying to apply the IJN of 1941 to the IJN of 1939. The Japanese are far, far weaker in 1939 than they were two years later.
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Old 28 Dec 15, 15:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
A single long range gun with a spotter plane or a ground observer (like Strachwitz in Tukum, the rangers in Sicily, the Navajos in Okinawa or the Germans in Anzio) can do wonders, much more so several 28 cm guns (which fire at a higher velocity & retain energy much better than British 8" guns). What was the range in Anzio. Tobruk, the guns in Calais, etc,?
Moreover, in an invasion, the ship with a spotter plane & a single long range gun can fire indirectly at enemy ships, which w/o spotter planes (owing to axis air dominion) w/o risk of being hit by enemy indirect fire.
No, it can't. In naval combat things are different from providing amphibious fire support. With no fixed land marks to reference all the plane can do is call the fall of shot. It's still up to the ship to make corrections and adjust fire.
A ship with a decent radar and optics with a good fire control computer / plotting system makes aerial observation of fall of shot unnecessary, hence why nobody bothered to do it during WW 2 naval engagements.
It is also to the advantage of the firing ship to have more gun barrels and faster rates of fire so that the interval time between salvos is reduced to the shortest time possible. Thus, a single slow firing gun is worthless in a naval engagement.

As for invading... If anything you proposed is going up against US coast defenses at any major port or point of importance, they are going to be blown out of the water in short order.
Also, there is the distinct possibility that the defenders have aircraft available so the equivalent of a piper cub fluttering around unmolested is actually very much a delusion in many cases. Since the attackers normally won't have any air power at all outside those few nearly worthless, unarmed, float planes, if they do have air power available it's the attackers who will be facing bombing, strafing, and shooting down of their few observation aircraft.
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Old 28 Dec 15, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
No. Without their battle line the USN had nothing to compete with the Japanese "big-gun" battleships and cruisers, let alone carriers. Java Sea and other similar battles should underline this fact. Not one American battleship was able to interfere with the offensive southward as the first ship to be repaired, the Maryland, was only able to reenter service in June 1942, fully 6 months after the fact. Of course by that time the Battle of Midway had already taken place and the war was about to enter its "stalemate" phase in the Solomons and New Guinea. The US BBs were out of the picture entirely until Washington and South Dakota's duel with Kirishima, and those ships weren't even at Pearl Harbor.

Thus in terms of tactics and immediate strategic goals the raid was a great success. In terms of Japan's ability to win the war, well, the outcome was in hindsight never in doubt, but it would have been hard to start the war as well-off as the Japanese did in late 1941/early 1942. The Southern Offensive was wildly successful, outstripping expectations in almost all areas and with far fewer losses than was feared, thanks in great part to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Even the much faster Repulse & PoW, with better AAA easily bit the dust so soon as they engaged the enemy. The allies were throroughly trounced throughout the DEI. Without a strong airforce in Java & Sumatra battle wagons are easy fodder for torpedo planes & longe lance torpedoes from DD, cruisers & BB & sub torpedoes. Houston, Exeter, etc, had better AAA, speed & maneuverability than the old BBs, but in small numbers they were lost without doing much damage, much less interfere with Japanese expansion. The most successful naval action in the first months was performed by 4 stackers against troop transports & cargo ships & DD remained intact in PH.

In a sense, damaging the BB in shallow waters was a blessing for USN crews, which would have perished if attacked in deeper & enemy waters with much greater casualties & losing the ships permanently.

One of the BB was stranded & others received minimum damage in dry dock.
The Pacific fleet had those BB in action during the battle of Midway, but knowing their severe limitations they were deployed escorting convoys off the west coast instead.

Yamamoto was extremely depressed & disappointed when he learnt that the carriers, fuel farms, etc, were untouched because the planes had attacked only once & hauled butt, wasting the complete surprise completely, so he refused to celebrate the °victory" with all the other ecstatic, oblivious officers.
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