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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #16  
Old 27 Dec 15, 05:29
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I don't remember any OP in Alternative Timelines that was in favour of Allies.
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  #17  
Old 27 Dec 15, 09:04
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Be damned to all of you!!

Stop being so negative, all of you.

I am completely convinced.


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  #18  
Old 27 Dec 15, 09:36
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
Stop being so negative, all of you.

I am completely convinced.


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I believe someone has beaten you to the opiates sir!


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  #19  
Old 27 Dec 15, 10:49
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Belgrave,
Chapter II, they're the axis ships & planes at allied ports & airfields the world over, loaded with cannon, motorcycles, etc, whose sailors, tourists, etc, are special troops & capture the invaluable airfields, docks, etc, & prepare to receive more axis ships & planes.
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  #20  
Old 27 Dec 15, 12:50
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Bedad, Sure and it's a Conspiracy.

The Senior All Ireland Hurling Championship began on 7 May 1939, and ended, even more eeriely, on 3 September 1939.

Kilkenny beat Cork in the final, by the way.

Has Coco the Clown deliberately chosen this date to thwart Kilkenny of their rightful triumph?

I think we should be told.
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Old 27 Dec 15, 14:39
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More Hurling News.

Amazingly, the All Ireland Senior Hurling Champions for 2015 were also Kilkenny!

There must be more to this than is dreamt of in our philosophy.
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  #22  
Old 27 Dec 15, 14:42
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Even More Hurling News.

In 1940, Kelkenny lost to Limerick in the final, although they may well not have done if they had only thought to occupy Pantelleria.
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  #23  
Old 27 Dec 15, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Belgrave,
Chapter II, they're the axis ships & planes at allied ports & airfields the world over, loaded with cannon, motorcycles, etc, whose sailors, tourists, etc, are special troops & capture the invaluable airfields, docks, etc, & prepare to receive more axis ships & planes.
Ah: a surprise attack. But how could such a series of operations remain secret ?
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  #24  
Old 27 Dec 15, 15:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
I don't remember any OP in Alternative Timelines that was in favour of Allies.
Well, that's no fun. It's really no different than arguing how Manchester United could have taken Arsenal, or the Cowboys could have won over the Steelers last weekend (or whatever team and sport you want to discuss likewise that lost to a rival).
Arguing how the winners could have won more is not nearly as fun or as heated a discussion as how the losers could have avoided the @$$ kicking they took.

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  #25  
Old 27 Dec 15, 15:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Well, that's no fun. It's really no different than arguing how Manchester United could have taken Arsenal, or the Cowboys could have won over the Steelers last weekend (or whatever team and sport you want to discuss likewise that lost to a rival).
Arguing how the winners could have won more is not nearly as fun or as heated a discussion as how the losers could have avoided the @$$ kicking they took.

Probably. But what about winning lost campaigns? Or winning sooner than in 6 years and with less casualties? Just a thought. You see, I consider it unfair when only one side has given advantages.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year everyone!
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  #26  
Old 27 Dec 15, 16:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Ah: a surprise attack. But how could such a series of operations remain secret ?
It is not a series (a sequence) but a group of simultaneous operations wordlwide. OTL there were German ships at port all over the world (including Poland)on 1 Sept, 1939, when the surprise factor was completely wasted attacking the only country which was certain to be attacked.
I am simply using ships & planes from a much larger axis to attack in peace time in myriad places.

The Swiss embassy & a French pilot reported 100 km vehicle queues adjacent to Luxemburg & Belgium on may 8 & 9 1940 & Gamelin did nothing.
In 1941 the allies knew with certainty that Japan was going to attack in the PI, Malaya, etc, & did nothing substantial. The field commanders knew nothing about the PH attack. Fortunately for the allies the Japanse didn't occupy an undefended Hawaiian island.
In 1944 American intelligence did not realize that the Germans were amassing thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of troops, etc, a few km away in the Ardennes & were cought completely by surprise.
In this case Poland is in the axis, so Britain has not even begun to decipher enigma in May 1939.
I can imagine the response of Daladier, Gamelin, Chamberlain, Roosevelt, etc, even if their spies told them that they were about to be attacked all over the world. What the hell can they do? can they risk war with the axis if the reports are false? can they prepare all the ports & airports mentioned in time to defend them against the massive axis?
Only top leaders know about the massive simultaneous attack. Each ship & group of troops only know about their attack.
OTL several traitors told the allies about the invasions of France & Poland, because they thought that the allies could still win. A trator would have to be a real optimits if he thought that telling the allies could save them from the massive axis.

Despite their weak army, the Japanese kicked butt wherever they attacked (except Wake, where they did not have any planes or large naval guns).
Despite attacking simultaneously 10 Dutch, 21 Belgian & over 100 French divisions 8 months into the war & without any real surprise factor, Germany promptly trounced France. Therefore, a much stronger axis with strong navies, armies & air forces, invading all 3 large, poorly prepared democracies simultaneously would promptly kick butt.

Last edited by Dracoco; 27 Dec 15 at 16:21..
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  #27  
Old 27 Dec 15, 16:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
Probably. But what about winning lost campaigns? Or winning sooner than in 6 years and with less casualties? Just a thought. You see, I consider it unfair when only one side has given advantages.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year everyone!
Those are fair game because they are in the same vein as what I discussed above.

And, I want to share and spread your sediment... err, sentiment. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Oh, maybe if I get energetic I'll demolish at least a couple of Draco's comments in that Magnum Oedipus...
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  #28  
Old 27 Dec 15, 17:38
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Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
Probably. But what about winning lost campaigns? Or winning sooner than in 6 years and with less casualties? Just a thought. You see, I consider it unfair when only one side has given advantages.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year everyone!
How about using their massive resources to actually win the war before Italy joins Germany & the USSR & US win the war for the allies?

Look at the thread where the allies do not declare war, but prepare to occupy Denmark (including a Polish divison) so soon as Germany invades Poland & Britain actually gives Poland a few planes (Swordfish, etc,)

There are plenty of threads where Britain actually wins (instead of blundering for years, wasting its economy & 30 billion dollars of L-L and thousands of Indians, Aussies, Canadians, etc,) You just are too lazy to look for them.

How about a thread in which the allies defeat ridiculously weak Japan in Java in months (instead of having to ruin the American economy building over 100 carriers & a huge number of BB, CA, subs, planes, etc, & losing a lot of men invading useless islands for years) by deploying their numerous BB, the forces from the untenable PI, etc, to the invaluable, distant from Japan & most defensible place, which they know is certainly going to be attacked. Instead of keeping a huge fleet just waiting to be destroyed in PH by a nation with an industry 100 times weaker than that of the allies? Look for it instead of whining.

The allies won despite astonishing incompetence & waste only because they had a lot more industry & people & the axis did not coordinate their efforts & resources at all. However, had the allies had good generals & admirals, they would have promptly swept aside the axis' relatively weak forces (which were used far more competently to kick the allies' butt for years).

Last edited by Dracoco; 27 Dec 15 at 18:47..
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  #29  
Old 27 Dec 15, 17:46
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Let's start with this dreck.

Accordingly, Hitler decides 1) Not to build any battleships or carriers (big, expensive targets for the RN) & to concentrate shipyard capacity on converting merchant raiders & building large numbers of identical submarines, torpedo boats, mine layers, landing craft & destroyers, so that he can start the war with at least 16 merchant raiders with an 18 cm gun, three each 15 cm guns, 9 cm & 37 mm (AA) guns, eight 20 mm cannon, 6 torpedo tubes for long lance torpedoes, 24 each submarine & long lance torpedoes, 2 small catapults, eight Sea Cubs (with floats instead of wheels) & 200 mines (the merchant raiders can supply munitions, food, planes, etc, to submarines, destroyers, torpedo boats & land forces in Britain, Hawaii, the PI, etc,). 300 smaller cargo ships with a 9 cm & a 37 mm (AA) gun & 2 each 20 mm cannon & MG 34. 100 each U-boats & torpedo boats (with a 9 cm gun & a 20 mm cannon & MG 34. Each torpedo & U-boat operating near axis coasts is supported by a land based spotter plane) & 60 destroyers (with a 15 cm gun, three 13 cm guns, two each 9 cm & 37 mm (AA) guns, four each 20 mm guns & MG 34, 6 torpedo tubes, 12 long lance torpedoes, 50 depth charges, 3 search lights, a small catapult & two spotter planes with an MG 34) & ensuring high continued production capacity for these vessels from the first day of the war, so that losses can be replaced.[/quote]

Draco's merchant raider is much worse than the historical German ones.

His has a main armament of just 4 large caliber guns. One (the 18cm) is a bit larger than the 15cm historical raiders had. But historical raiders had 6 15cm guns, 1 7.5cm gun, 2 3.7 and 4 2cm AA guns. They carried more torpedoes, but only had two tubes since this weapon was primarily for finishing off captured ships rather than combat, carried more mines 300 versus 200, had more stores for U-boats too.

That the Germans build more is largely irrelevant as they will be hunted down in pretty short order and captured or sunk. Merchant raiders were doomed to failure by the airplane and radar / radio.

The use of "sea cubs" which I take to be some sort of Storch-like aircraft would be nearly worthless. Such a small and flimsy airplane could not be used in anything but the calmest seas as it couldn't stand up to the battering of waves landing. Larger seaplanes and float planes do better in such conditions.
Also, with less range and time aloft, they are very limited to worthless as reconnaissance planes.

What kind of "forces" a merchant raider could land seems to almost be an absurd joke.

The "smaller" merchant ships were available to Germany at the beginning of the war. So what? Most German merchant shipping overseas sought neutral ports immediately on the outbreak of the war.

He does double the number of U-boats without specifying the type.

Nor are the "torpedo boats" specified. Are these S-boat type vessels or something like Wolf class torpedo boats?



60 crappy destroyers are also specified. These have a mixed battery of one 15cm and 3 13cm (12.8cm?) guns, two 8.8cm, just 6 torpedo tubes and oddly, three searchlights and a catapult with two aircraft.

That makes them weakly armed 2,000 ton destroyers, give or take. They are more lightly armed than British or US DD are, and the catapult would take up a lot of space not to mention the hazard of aircraft and avgas on the ship.
Three Fletcher class DD were built with catapults to give some idea of the space required for this:



The torpedo reloads will take space up too. The Japanese did this with a reload time of about 15 to 30 minutes.

All-in-all, the KM is ill prepared for a war at sea of any sort.


Quote:
. 2) To make sure that all the submarines, torpedo boats, planes, destroyers, merchant raiders, cruisers & battleships of his allies start the war fighting alongside the German planes & vessels. A strong KM & LW can destroy perhaps so many ships as the allies can build. However, large axis sea & air fleets can wipe out the allied ships all over the world much faster than the allies can replace the sunken ships. Most importantly by involving dozens of nations & attacking dozens of allied ports by surprise, the axis can capture a huge number of invaluable allied ships at hundreds of axis ports & dozens of invaded ports on the 1st hours of the war. This is much better than having to locate & sink ships at sea, wasting the ships & invaluable crews & cargo.
The Luftwaffe, operating solely from land can't destroy ships in 95% + of the world's oceans on the outbreak of war. Outside the Baltic and North Sea they are worthless for all intents.
The KM being far weaker is pretty much limited to just the Guerre de Course merchant raiding war.

The rest of this is delusional drivel.

Quote:
3) To invade England at the beginning of the war by concentrating planes, torpedo boats, mines, destroyers, etc, in the English Channel, where the expensive behemoths of the British & French Navies will be extremely vulnerable.
In what will the invasion force be coming? In what will it land? What ports will it leave from? The nearest ports to England are Emden and Wilhelmshaven in the Baltic.
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Old 27 Dec 15, 18:26
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T. A.
My impaired memory afflicted, lousy reader. We are talking about May 7, 1939 at which time OTL Germany has not a single merchant raider, the Fletcher class is but a dream, most RN DDs have 4" guns (a bit weaker than those suggested for KM DD).
I take a large number of axis merchant raiders to start the war on 7 May, 1939 over a few German merchant raiders long after the war started any time.

In this scenario, by the evening axis forces control myriad ports & at dawn on 7 May torpedo planes, dive & skip bombers & submarines, torpedo boats, etc, from Ireland, Belgium, Holland, the Faeroes, Canaries, Cape Verde, Azores, Iceland, Portugal, Norway, Spain, Sicily, Sardinia, Crete & myriad bases in South America, Asia, the GEI, German Guiana, Japanese colonies, Thailand (Indian & Pacific Ocean), etc, are having a field day. Don't forget the magnetic & conventional mines deployed in the DDs' way & the large number of axis DD, etc,. Accordingly the 184 RN DD the world over, the few USN DD in the PI & Hawaii, Panama, etc, & the few French DD at the attacked ports & bases (Dakar, etc,) or within range of axis planes, subs, DD, etc, have a rather short life.

The torpedo boats are S-boats.
The single 8" gun of the merchant ships allows them to sink allied DD, cruisers, etc, at a safe range & to provide ground support 30 km away. Their Italian 90 mm guns can fire very fast & with an even flatter trajectory & heavier shell than the 8.8 cm FLAK & provide quite a punch against DD, cargo ships, subs, torpedo boats, etc, saving the 15.5 cm shells only for the heavier ships.
As to the number of troops that such a large ship can hold, remember the cruiser which transported 1,200 men (despite being smaller than a merchant cruiser). Remember also the people evacuated from Korea in the 1950's in a victory ship. Not that thousands of troops are needed to take over the docks in peace time, while other ships arrive.

Too bad You didn't read about the Piper Cub purchase. Sea Cubs simply have floats & are operating form myriad axis bases, DD, merchant raiders, etc, they needn't much range to detect ships approaching Britain & spot for the gunners. It is easier to land a slow, very light, low wing loading Sea Cub than to TO or land the heavier, faster sea planes.

Last edited by Dracoco; 27 Dec 15 at 18:43..
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