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  #61  
Old 22 Dec 15, 10:48
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As a basis for the game you could look at Burma in the OCS series by the Gamers/MMP. You have 3 Japanese infantry divisions modelled in the game already.

OCS is interesting for this as it contains an Action Rating for each unit which models training, leadership and other factors. Japanese infantry battalions are highly rated (5AR) but their armour units are poorly rated (2AR). OCS also models logistics.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Pr...4/Default.aspx

The trick is how to model the ISIS units.


EDIT: The OCS game reluctant enemies already has part of the map:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Li...QI%3d&tabid=59
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  #62  
Old 22 Dec 15, 11:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And the SP-150mm guns... a platoon were certainly a handy thing, but I also didn't want a unit from any later than early 1944. A degree of fatalism had started creeping in then, and I would rather have top-notch troops than a few extra gadgets.
Surely that's an exaggeration. If anything, their effectiveness was increasing as evidenced by the increasing Allied casualty tolls as the was pushed toward Japan. Fatalism, that is, the belief in certain victory or death, was always present among the Japanese military. But if you don't wan't Ho-Ros, you could also substitute the Ho-Ni II. This was a late 1943 vehicle armed with a 105mm main gun. It had both armor-piercing and high-explosive shells and saw service in the Philippines.



Quote:
Looks like I will be stuck with the 37mm AT guns, but that is fine since the 47mm wasn't enough of an improvement. And having the 20mm ATRs will be a great help, apparently the larger battalions are the only ones that get them.
You could still use the 47mm as that entered service in 1942. Unlike the 37mm the Type 1 47mm could reliably penetrate most spots on the Sherman from medium ranges (500-800 yards).

The Japanese also liked to use their Type 88 75mm mobile AA guns in an anti-tank role, as these could kill most Allied tanks from a distance of 1500 yards or more. I would imagine they could penetrate the side armor of a T-55 from a considerable distance.

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  #63  
Old 22 Dec 15, 12:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The Type 97 20mm ATR is actually pretty rare. You'd be better off giving the unit some Type 96 25mm AA guns instead....
I know a production run of about 1,000 isn't much, but a Strengthened Battalion only needs half a dozen.

Speaking of AAA, I can't find any word on the most important thing; how many a Division that might face either the Soviets or the Chinese could expect to have.


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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The IJA variety is single barrel and sets up on a tripod mount typically. It's more powerful both as an HE firing weapon and as an AT gun firing from a 15 round magazine. Or, some 20mm Type 2 AA guns. Again a single on a tripod.


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Originally Posted by AdrianE View Post
As a basis for the game you could look at Burma in the OCS series by the Gamers/MMP. You have 3 Japanese infantry divisions modelled in the game already.

The thing is, we are already going with a Division type that was more oriented towards North China/Manchuria. A Division tailored for Jungle or Island fighting isn't going to accomplish much in the desert.
I'm not even thinking in terms of full mechanization, 1500 vehicles isn't going to do that for 25,000 men anyway, not by a long shot. However, we have to try to be a little realistic, and there were some very good divisions up there too. Have a look at the 3rd Dv, nicknamed "Lucky".




The trick is how to model the ISIS units.
Yeah, bigtime!

EDIT: The OCS game reluctant enemies already has part of the map:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Li...QI%3d&tabid=59
Awesome map!
But I think I will be starting with the Iraq area.



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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Surely that's an exaggeration. If anything, their effectiveness was increasing as evidenced by the increasing Allied casualty tolls as the was pushed toward Japan. Fatalism, that is, the belief in certain victory or death, was always present among the Japanese military. But if you don't wan't Ho-Ros, you could also substitute the Ho-Ni II. This was a late 1943 vehicle armed with a 105mm main gun. It had both armor-piercing and high-explosive shells and saw service in the Philippines.



Fatalism may be the wrong word, and I was really thinking of how things fell apart in 1945 in Manchuria and China.

And that machine looks fine, a battery of those would be great!


You could still use the 47mm as that entered service in 1942. Unlike the 37mm the Type 1 47mm could reliably penetrate most spots on the Sherman from medium ranges (500-800 yards).

The Japanese also liked to use their Type 88 75mm mobile AA guns in an anti-tank role, as these could kill most Allied tanks from a distance of 1500 yards or more. I would imagine they could penetrate the side armor of a T-55 from a considerable distance.

Yes, the 47mm would be decent vs Shermans, but there were no Shermans in China.

Look, I don't want to get a Division that is too a-typical here. Having one of the better Divsions is fine, but lets not exceed what the best of them actually went in with.

I will sit down and do a very full write-up for the Division, placing every heavy weapon and fighting vehicle in their respective Regiment/Battalion as well as what is held at Division level. There will also be a mechanized group that will be passed around between Regiments or be sent dashing off on its own.
That's going to take some work on my part and I won't be able to help much with the biggest stumbling block- ISIS.
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  #64  
Old 22 Dec 15, 14:32
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The Kwantung Army in 1945 was not representative of the entire IJA as it was below 1942 standards even in equipment. For the best of the IJA circa 1945, you would have to look to the Home Islands. Many of the formations there were much better than the old ones in terms firepower and quality of equipment. Training varied, but the 200-series "assault divisions" received the best quality personnel on hand, and many of the original Kwantung divisions were there as well.

On the subject of AT guns, the Kwantung Army early on received priority for 47mm allotments as it was at the time Japan's premier anti-Soviet force. There would be no problems with that there.
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  #65  
Old 22 Dec 15, 14:46
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Japanese AA guns are found in separate "battalions" again. Here's some common ones:

Independent AA Regiment (Koshaho Rentai): 16 Type 88 guns, 12 searchlights, 12 sound locaters, 1085 men. Semi-mobile.

AA battalion (Yasen Koshaho Daitai). There are 3 variants but the following is the mobile variety: 670 men, 204 rifles, 6 HMG, 12 Type 88 75mm AA guns, 18 tractors, 72 motor vehicles.

The unit breaks down into three companies / batteries (Dokuritsu koshaho chutai)

The automatic variety is about the same manpower but has 18 13mm machineguns and 18 20mm AA guns. Its more common as a company of 6 13mm HMG and 6 20mm than as a larger unit.

The 75mm battalion is pretty common and exists most places the IJA operated. The automatic AA company is more commonly attached to division directly while the heavy AA unit is more like corps troops for general defense of an area or location.
So, you might have a single division on say, New Britain, and there's two 75mm AA battalions or a regiment assigned to the island to defend various points.
The same would be true in China. You have a division defending a stretch of border with Russia and an AA battalion or regiment is assigned to the area for air defense.
The automatic company might be assigned to the division as a sub unit for defense of something like the division HQ, that sort of thing.
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  #66  
Old 22 Dec 15, 21:45
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Something interesting;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/56th_D..._Japanese_Army)
Note the Arty Regt is'nt we thought it would be.
This lack of standardization is giving me a real headache.

And the cadre' in those 200-series Divisions were just drek, no way.

THanks for all the info, I think I will just create a Div instead of starting an endless inquiry into the exact make-up of Division "X" on such and such a date, it will be simpler and less exposed to later criticism.

I will just say that my Division was ramping up for Ichi-Go in early 1944 and vanished w/o a trace, as so many Chinese Divisions did. Or maybe one that was bypassed and missed out on the action... restless spirits and all that stuff.
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Last edited by The Exorcist; 23 Dec 15 at 16:25..
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  #67  
Old 22 Dec 15, 22:03
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And the cadre' in those 200-series Divisions were just drek, no way.
On the contrary, they were formed from the most highly-trained personnel available. Together with the Kwantung divisions they were the best of the IJA, and they had access to the most advanced equipment.
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  #68  
Old 22 Dec 15, 22:27
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
On the contrary, they were formed from the most highly-trained personnel available. Together with the Kwantung divisions they were the best of the IJA, and they had access to the most advanced equipment.
Well, Wiki had something to say about that;
Quote:
The 201st Division was raised in Tokyo with its headquarters in Kunitachi. It came under the control of the Japanese 36th Army. As with the other emergency divisions raised at the time, it contained many over-age reservists, under-age students, and men previously rejected from conscription for a variety of medical conditions. It was lightly armed, mostly with obsolete weapons from World War I or even Russo-Japanese War stockpiles, and had minimal training. It was dissolved at the end of the war without having seen combat.
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  #69  
Old 22 Dec 15, 23:23
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If you want a really good division pick one under number 15, and not including the Imperial Guard. Those are the regular divisions with long term veteran troops. The Imperial Guard was largely ceremonial / for show so they're far more spit and polish than really hardened crack troops. I'd pick the 5th. It's a square division and is motorized. It also is one of the oldest IJA divisions and fought well for decades.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 22 Dec 15 at 23:29..
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Old 23 Dec 15, 00:36
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
If you want a really good division pick one under number 15, and not including the Imperial Guard. Those are the regular divisions with long term veteran troops. The Imperial Guard was largely ceremonial / for show so they're far more spit and polish than really hardened crack troops. I'd pick the 5th. It's a square division and is motorized. It also is one of the oldest IJA divisions and fought well for decades.
THanks, but I think I will go with the 3rd, I already am working on the triangular model with "strengthening". And it wasn't motorized like you think; the infantry rode on Bicycles.

I have a plan to hit two places at nearly the same time where there should be some sort of Depots, so don't worry about that. With a medium tank group, scout car company and the rest of it, I should be fine in the initial rush.
Hell, the engineers even have Chemical decontamination trucks!
So, stop trying to pack me with goodies. I know its Christmas, but I think I'll be fine, and certainly more mobile if I don't try to add too many extra units.

Once I do a full TO&E in this thread I will start the game thread (as a place-marker to start with, not a demand for action!) and do a narrative on how this starts out.

BTW, events may start to overtake us if we wait too long, the Iraqi army is trying to take Ramadi right now.
Good for me, bad for the ISIS players.
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  #71  
Old 23 Dec 15, 03:06
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The Kwantung Army in 1944 and 45 is really just a shadow of it's former self. Most of it's good units where sent off to fight the US military in the pacific, and the units that where transferred in where largely raw divisions, who where not really ready for combat by mid 1945.
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Old 23 Dec 15, 03:33
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The Kwantung Army in 1944 and 45 is really just a shadow of it's former self. Most of it's good units where sent off to fight the US military in the pacific, and the units that where transferred in where largely raw divisions, who where not really ready for combat by mid 1945.
Everyone has a different idea, seems like we can do this for 100 years and never come to a consensus. But I have to say, the results of Ichi-Go argue that they had some serious mojo working for them even in 1944.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ichi-Go

So, what have you got on ISIS?
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  #73  
Old 23 Dec 15, 12:55
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Well, Wiki had something to say about that;
That's just a generalized statement some form or another of which are present on most articles concerning Japanese formations on the Home Islands, sometimes to the point of copy-pasting. It has no source and is completely inaccurate. Giangreco as well as the Japanese Monographs (written by Japanese staff officers) state that they were of very high quality.

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The Kwantung Army in 1944 and 45 is really just a shadow of it's former self. Most of it's good units where sent off to fight the US military in the pacific, and the units that where transferred in where largely raw divisions, who where not really ready for combat by mid 1945.
Ichi-Go was mostly done by the China Expeditionary Army. IIRC there was only one Kwantung division that participated.

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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
THanks, but I think I will go with the 3rd, I already am working on the triangular model with "strengthening". And it wasn't motorized like you think; the infantry rode on Bicycles.
They did use bicycles, but they also had about 1,000 trucks. Bicycles were an "in addition to," not an "instead of" when it came to motorization, as they were particularly useful in navigating the jungle terrain.

Last edited by BobTheBarbarian; 23 Dec 15 at 13:12..
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  #74  
Old 23 Dec 15, 13:40
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Lets ship that part. Take my word for it, outside involvement can turn any wargame into an absolute mess.
Or... lets make that a time-sensitive issue that limits the scope of the game. IJA has 4 weeks to win, or the rest of the world piles in. Seems like a reasonable time-frame to me.
4 weeks with no external supply or support from the outside? Against a body of guerillass armed with modern assault rifles and main battle tanks?

Oh yeah, my money's on ISIS. ISIS could literally just ride in trucks away from the battle and avoid serious fighting for that length of time till the Japanese are overstretched and running low on ammo.
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Old 23 Dec 15, 15:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
You should. But, you should think of Japanese divisions more like US, British, or German divisions as a corps. That is, it is normal for it to have attached units to accomplish its mission and is acting as a mini-corps rather than just as a division.
In that sense, in your scenario attaching several units like a 150mm artillery unit, an antitank battalion with 47mm guns, or the like would be the norm rather than the exception.



You should also keep in mind that many ISIS units are highly mobile. Their members often own their own vehicles and use them for mobility.







What this means in terms of your game is that the many small units of ISIS can with a few cell phone calls concentrate considerable resources into a fight in a very short period of time.

yes because the Japanese never moved to the corp organization as their main unit of combat they retained everything that normally would be at the corp level at the Divisional level. Every division is a self functioning unit.

ie logistics, support, engineering and all that other stuff
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