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  #46  
Old 20 Dec 15, 20:24
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Question: Are we operating under the assumption of standard or motorized infantry regiments for the Japanese? If we are the divisional total for motor vehicles rises above 1,500 (from 500), the number of AT guns rises to 85 (from 40), and the number of horses goes down to about 7,000 (from 10,000).
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  #47  
Old 20 Dec 15, 20:40
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The biggest down falling I see with ISIS is a near complete lack of organized logistics. Their units are on their own for everything from food to ammunition. While they are operating on local ground this might not be a huge problem but it would be when they have to engage in sustained combat or are fighting on "foreign" soil.
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  #48  
Old 20 Dec 15, 22:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Question: Are we operating under the assumption of standard or motorized infantry regiments for the Japanese? If we are the divisional total for motor vehicles rises above 1,500 (from 500), the number of AT guns rises to 85 (from 40), and the number of horses goes down to about 7,000 (from 10,000).
I'm not sure, maybe I should pick a Division and just go with it.
There are so many variables.... Cavalry or mech Recon, Mountain gun or regular, this stuff, Triangular or square, its endless.

The 2nd & 3rd Div. were known for being a crack team, But what I would want is FIELD artillery and mechanized recon. There really isn't any way to match ISIS for mechanization at the start, so I'm not sure I even want to try.

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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The biggest down falling I see with ISIS is a near complete lack of organized logistics. Their units are on their own for everything from food to ammunition. While they are operating on local ground this might not be a huge problem but it would be when they have to engage in sustained combat or are fighting on "foreign" soil.
Well, don't worry about the later. I;m thinking about an offensive that starts around Mosul and has Palmyra as a finish line, 4 weeks later. The IJA is on the offensiveand has to make steady progress the whole time.
Sound fair?

I wonder where we can get a ISIS player...
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  #49  
Old 20 Dec 15, 23:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I'm not sure, maybe I should pick a Division and just go with it.
There are so many variables.... Cavalry or mech Recon, Mountain gun or regular, this stuff, Triangular or square, its endless.

The 2nd & 3rd Div. were known for being a crack team, But what I would want is FIELD artillery and mechanized recon. There really isn't any way to match ISIS for mechanization at the start, so I'm not sure I even want to try.

Well, don't worry about the later. I;m thinking about an offensive that starts around Mosul and has Palmyra as a finish line, 4 weeks later. The IJA is on the offensiveand has to make steady progress the whole time.
Sound fair?

I wonder where we can get a ISIS player...
Thats where it gets interesting for both sides. If the Japanese commander can get hold of the suppressive weapons that ISIS carries, he can use them against ISIS. Think of organizing all those captured AKs, AKMs, PKMs, and RPGs. I would not mix them with WW2 weapon carrying infantry. I would promote the heavy weapons squads that distinguish themselves and pass along the old automatics to assistant gunners and regular riflemen. To get these weapons I would use their numbers and discipline to use the riflemen as marksmen. Mass enough well aimed shots at combatants who are spraying bullets without aiming and they will get shot. Sure it will be scary for the Japanese riflemen, especially the amount of RPGs, but with the fear of defeat and the loyalty to the Emperor that should be enough. Ditching our old vehicles for faster more capable ones would be priority. Use our kamikaze tactics motorized. Any ISIS fighter witnessing a motorized charge of technicals isn't going to stick around. They don't want to fight when the numerical odds are against them. Put many vehicles to charge at one point and their armor will be overwhelmed. The terrain allows for it unless artificial barriers are made. For the Japanese the goal will be to keep them on their toes so they aren't defending long enough to fortify.

As an ISIS commander I would be consolidating my forces (hope they aren't reading this or are...). Fall back from positions that don't mean anything. Fortify positions that restrict motorized maneuvering. Place my heavy weapons where they can overlap each others sectors of fire. Use my armor to react to movement and counter attack enemy AFVs. Tell my men to put selector on semi (is that existent on AKs?), save RPGs for AFVs or as last resort. Train them to disable or booby trap their weapons, equipment, ammo, and vehicles if they know they will have to fight to the death or will be captured. This includes their cell phones and radios. I'm betting the Japanese will quickly figure out these new communications methods and exploit them. Technical caltrops. Basically using 17th century anti cavalry methods to stop 21st century motorized cavalry. Improvised spike strips. Sharpened rebar, large nails and screws, large rocks, stacked wood, hidden ditches, etc. There are many ways to mobility kill a technical without weapons or explosives. Use these traps as ambushes to maximize casualties. Tell my men to aim and use cover and concealment (lol), covering fire and bounding (lol), flanking, etc.
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  #50  
Old 20 Dec 15, 23:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I'm not sure, maybe I should pick a Division and just go with it.
There are so many variables.... Cavalry or mech Recon, Mountain gun or regular, this stuff, Triangular or square, its endless.

The 2nd & 3rd Div. were known for being a crack team, But what I would want is FIELD artillery and mechanized recon. There really isn't any way to match ISIS for mechanization at the start, so I'm not sure I even want to try.
You should. But, you should think of Japanese divisions more like US, British, or German divisions as a corps. That is, it is normal for it to have attached units to accomplish its mission and is acting as a mini-corps rather than just as a division.
In that sense, in your scenario attaching several units like a 150mm artillery unit, an antitank battalion with 47mm guns, or the like would be the norm rather than the exception.

Quote:
Well, don't worry about the later. I;m thinking about an offensive that starts around Mosul and has Palmyra as a finish line, 4 weeks later. The IJA is on the offensiveand has to make steady progress the whole time.
Sound fair?

I wonder where we can get a ISIS player...
You should also keep in mind that many ISIS units are highly mobile. Their members often own their own vehicles and use them for mobility.







What this means in terms of your game is that the many small units of ISIS can with a few cell phone calls concentrate considerable resources into a fight in a very short period of time.
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  #51  
Old 21 Dec 15, 02:06
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Impressive assembly of knowledge on this thread. I think it would likely be an urban campaign rather than a flowing, fast moving land campaign.
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  #52  
Old 21 Dec 15, 12:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frtigern View Post
Thats where it gets interesting for both sides. If the Japanese commander can get hold of the suppressive weapons that ISIS carries, he can use them against ISIS. Think of organizing all those captured AKs, AKMs, PKMs, and RPGs. I would not mix them with WW2 weapon carrying infantry. I would promote the heavy weapons squads that distinguish themselves and pass along the old automatics to assistant gunners and regular riflemen. To get these weapons I would use their numbers and discipline to use the riflemen as marksmen.......
Way ahead of you, and those old bolt-action rifles are indeed intended to deliver accurate fire at long range. This is not something that is common in that part of the world, strange indeed, considering how useful it would be in a desert environment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frtigern View Post
... Tell my men to aim and use cover and concealment (lol), covering fire and bounding (lol), flanking, etc.
We?
Are you wanting to take part in this as a player?
The plan I have involves splitting the Division at certain points, would you like a Regiment?
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  #53  
Old 21 Dec 15, 13:16
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Quote:
You should also keep in mind that many ISIS units are highly mobile. Their members often own their own vehicles and use them for mobility.
TAG, you know more about these guys than I do, would you like to be the Umpire?

And those pics are interesting, 3-4 armed trucks in a column of about a dozen, and its a mix of 12.7mm DSHK, 14.5mm KPV, and 23mm (must shake the hell out of the truck!)
If they pack them in, one group like that could be the wheels for about half a Company; 60-70 men plus the gun-wagons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
Impressive assembly of knowledge on this thread. I think it would likely be an urban campaign rather than a flowing, fast moving land campaign.
Well, that brings me to maps... another highly speculative subject.

There are amorphous blobs that give little hard information;


And very generalized things like this-


They are also outdated, somewhat difficult to even tell what they even show.


But here we have something better-

It even shows mount Xinjar, but no key towns.
WHat makes this interesting is all the gaps. The white areas within are basically empty wastelands. The vital areas are lines of communications and place like river valleys where the people are actually able to make a living somehow.

THIS one seems to be the best of the bunch-

It shows the difference between areas actually occupied and areas they just pass through with impunity, and areas where they are on the attack.

As you see, there are vast areas where maneuver will be called for, and there are also areas where urban slug-fests will be called for.
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  #54  
Old 21 Dec 15, 16:14
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I suppose I can umpire if you want.

On the trucks, it appears that many ISIS units are fully motorized using common motor vehicles. I'd say a typical "company" would be two or three "platoons" of about 20 to 30 men each with 2 to 3 vehicles mounting a heavy machinegun or a twin 23mm in some cases. The HMG can be dismounted in most cases as it's on a frame in the vehicle.



The HMG's tend to either be mounted on a tripod like here:



And used dismounted when necessary:



Or on a homemade sled:



Sometimes these are bolted in, other times they can be dismounted.
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  #55  
Old 21 Dec 15, 19:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Question: Are we operating under the assumption of standard or motorized infantry regiments for the Japanese? If we are the divisional total for motor vehicles rises above 1,500 (from 500), the number of AT guns rises to 85 (from 40), and the number of horses goes down to about 7,000 (from 10,000).
Are we talking a square or triangular Division?

The 3rd Div was square until July 4, 1942, I think that was the latest or close to it.

If not Square, I would like some of the larger Battalions. Its not so much for the numbers, but looking at the maps I need some flexibility. That's a lot of ground to cover in 4 weeks, and I need to be able to hit them in more than one place at a time.

The Strenghthened Battalion looke like this-

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/..._battalion.htm
Wow....

I wonder who we can get for the ISIS side....
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Last edited by The Exorcist; 21 Dec 15 at 20:13..
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  #56  
Old 21 Dec 15, 20:22
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Are we talking a square or triangular Division?
Triangular, as per the TOE on page 1.
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  #57  
Old 21 Dec 15, 20:29
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I would suggest giving the division a motorized / tank / armored car reconnaissance unit instead of cavalry. You might also consider some attached units since Japanese divisions usually had these. Say, a battery of 150mm guns, maybe an antitank battalion with 47mm, possibly an 81mm mortar battalion, or a rocket battalion with Type 4 launchers and 20cm rockets, or the Type 10 with troughs firing 250 to 500 lbs. bombs with a rocket push motor. Although the later has a range of maybe 1000 meters having something that can smash down a building could be handy.
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Old 21 Dec 15, 20:56
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The Japanese "strengthened" infantry division did have what essentially amounted to an armored regiment attached to it. Maybe in the way of mobile artillery we could add a regiment of Ho-Ro 150mm SPGs?







Weight: 16.3 tons
Length: 5.52m
Width: 2.33m
Height: 2.36m
Speed: 38 km/h
Range: 250 km
Powerplant: Mitsubishi Type 100 air-cooled V-12 diesel (170 hp)
Armor: 12-25mm
Gun range: 6,000 meters
Shell weight: 79 lbs
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  #59  
Old 22 Dec 15, 02:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Triangular, as per the TOE on page 1.
Right, my bad.
Need some Strengthened Battalions then, lots of bases to cover.

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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I would suggest giving the division a motorized / tank / armored car reconnaissance unit instead of cavalry. You might also consider some attached units since Japanese divisions usually had these. Say, a battery of 150mm guns, maybe an antitank battalion with 47mm, possibly an 81mm mortar battalion, or a rocket battalion with Type 4 launchers and 20cm rockets, or the Type 10 with troughs firing 250 to 500 lbs. bombs with a rocket push motor. Although the later has a range of maybe 1000 meters having something that can smash down a building could be handy.
Yes, I get what you are saying, and the TO&E did call for 24 x 105mm and 12x 150mm, but that didn't seem like enough to cover 25,000 men. I need to go for a couple of possible Depot locations right away.
The Recon was covered by having armored cars and light tanks as shown.... or so I thought. And the Mortars will certainly be needed, I'm just not so sure about doubling the number of AT guns.

And the SP-150mm guns... a platoon were certainly a handy thing, but I also didn't want a unit from any later than early 1944. A degree of fatalism had started creeping in then, and I would rather have top-notch troops than a few extra gadgets.

What I DO want to insist on is certain types of artillery;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_90_75_mm_Field_Gun
It was actually more common than its cheaper replacement that came later on.

And I want a third of the 105s to be this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_92_10_cm_Cannon

Looks like I will be stuck with the 37mm AT guns, but that is fine since the 47mm wasn't enough of an improvement. And having the 20mm ATRs will be a great help, apparently the larger battalions are the only ones that get them.

I feel like I'm almost ready to roll.

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Old 22 Dec 15, 09:41
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The Type 97 20mm ATR is actually pretty rare. You'd be better off giving the unit some Type 96 25mm AA guns instead.
The IJA variety is single barrel and sets up on a tripod mount typically. It's more powerful both as an HE firing weapon and as an AT gun firing from a 15 round magazine. Or, some 20mm Type 2 AA guns. Again a single on a tripod.



These would be a match the 23mm twin AA gun to a degree.
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