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  #61  
Old 18 Dec 15, 18:37
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It is interesting that when Holland finally decided to increase military spending 3 years before the war, they opted for 3 expensive battle cruisers to defend the DEI against a Japanese attack, instead of large numbers of inexpensive & more useful & less vulnerable submarines & Fokkers,
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  #62  
Old 18 Dec 15, 18:55
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
It is interesting that when Holland finally decided to increase military spending 3 years before the war, they opted for 3 expensive battle cruisers to defend the DEI against a Japanese attack, instead of large numbers of inexpensive & more useful & less vulnerable submarines & Fokkers,
That's because their admirals knew that submarines are spoilers not war winners and couldn't stop an invasion of the DEI, whereas large surface ships backed by aircraft could.
That's also why they ordered large numbers of US aircraft because they knew Fokker couldn't supply the quantity they needed.

They also recognized that they needed a modern army and ordered a huge number of tanks, supplied their forces with armored trucks and cars, and were organizing a military large enough to actually defend the DEI.

As it was, in 1941 the US, Dutch, and Commonwealth had a large number of submarines in SE Asia and these did little to nothing to stop the Japanese onslaught in the opening months of the war.
Dutch aircraft and surface ships fought well for their numbers and did more than their submarines did.
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  #63  
Old 18 Dec 15, 19:43
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You keep confusing orders under L-L in 1941 with 1936-40.
Fokker could certainly produce in several years more and better planes than those the US started to deliver much too late.

Submarines achieved far more than the much more epensive cruisers, including Houston & Exeter in the DEI.

Submarines are much more likely to sink transport ships & get away with it than are battlecruisers. US submarines achieved much less than Dutch counterparts because their torpedoes sucked, their torpedo dump was blown up in the PI (thanks to Mac's completely incompetent handling of his air force) and because USN submarine tactic destined them for scouting not sinking ships.

You keep bragging about the enormous US capacity to produce armament. The fact is that in the year we're discussing the US produced mostly junk & little of it & Patton was running exercises using trucks as make-believe tansk & flour sacs as bombs.
In 1939 both the mighty US & Britain had a smaller & more poorly equipped army than Poland & were extremely lucky that they had years to do the homework which they hadn't done in years.

Arguably the same number of D.XXI would have done better than the Buffalo in the DEI (which had even less powerful engines than those in Midway, which were themselves all chewed to bits without any victories).

It is surprising that a nation with such awesome industry would have Buffalo & SB2U in Midway & send them to bomb a strong fleet with totally inexperienced pilots.

You always make fun also of Japanese gunnery & brag about USN gunnery. The fact is that Yamato put three 18" shells & a score 6" shells on rather fast Johnston, while 6 BB & 5 cruisers could not promptly sink the damaged, tiny fleet that attacked them in Surigao (which had been already devastated by DD). Planes had to finish them off the following day.

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 19:54..
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  #64  
Old 18 Dec 15, 20:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
You keep confusing orders under L-L in 1941 with 1936.
Fokker could certainly produce in several years more and better planes than those the US started to deliver much too late.

Submarines achieved far more than the much more epensive cruisers, including Houston & Exeter in the DEI.

Submarines are much more likely to sink transport ships & get away with it than are battlecruisers. US submarines achieves much less than Dutch counterparts because their torpedoes sucked, their torpedo dump was blown up in the PI (thanks to Mac's completely incompetent handling of his air force) and because USN submarine tactic destined them for scouting not sinking ships.

You keep bragging about the enormous US capacity to produce armament. The fact is that in the year we'are discussing the US produced mostly junk 6 little of it & Patton was running exercises using trucks as make-believe tansk & flour sacs as bombs.
In 1939 both the mighty US & Britain has a smaller & more poorly equipped army than Poland & were extremely lucky that they had years to do the homework which they hadn't fone in years.
There was no real threat to the DEI in 1936, nor to the Netherlands. So, again, as others noted you are using 20/20 hindsight rather than foresight.

As for the Design 1047 battlecruiser that started in early 1939 and when Germany entered the war work on it pretty much ended.

http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Special_battlecruiser.htm

As for subs, maybe you should review a history of ABDA Flot. The Battle of Balikpapan is particularly instructive. Four US four piper DD made the most effective attack on a Japanese amphibious landing of that whole segment of the war.

As for successes of the Dutch subs versus US ones, do provide details (spoiler alert: I already know them and you are wrong).

As for aircraft, the Martin B-10 was a better bomber and aircraft than the Fokker T.VIII, it's closest equivalent. The Dornier 24 was ordered to replace Fokker floatplane designs because it was superior.
The Fokker DXXI isn't anywhere near as good as the B-332 (witness that Finland did well with it, and the Dutch ones had reasonable success too. The British failed with the Buffalo in Malaysia mainly because their pilots had few hours flying them and were barely trained). The P-40E is better than anything Fokker had coming out too. With the B-25 there isn't anything the Dutch were building that could match it, same with the PBY.

Once it became clear in late 1939 that building up their defenses was a real necessity the Dutch started doing that just as the British and French were.
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  #65  
Old 18 Dec 15, 20:50
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So much of a threat in 1936 that the militarily extremely parsimonious Dutch, who had declined the brand new hull of a USN BB in the twenties, decided to spend an unprecedented amount of money and embark on a multiyear long construction program for 3 unprecedented Dutch battlecruisers.

Finland did quite well with the D.XXI also (they evn built 50 themselves with Swedish engines) and did not fight the Zero, just Soviets. The USN could not have done worse with the Buffalo (much worse actually than the Dutch with inferior engines).
Considering that the D.XXI entered service years before the Buffalo & was much less expensive, better built, more reliable & easier to maintain, one can only conclude that Brewster was a retard compared to Fokker & that the USN must have received good bribes to acquire it.

I have also concluded that Nimitz used his astrologist (like Reagan often did) to determine what planes to deploy in Midway Island against the most formidable naval air force in the world

I referred to the dismal USN sub perfomance in 1941, early 42 & you counter with DD action. Cheers, have another pint.

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 21:00..
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  #66  
Old 18 Dec 15, 20:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
So much of a threat in 1936 that the militarily extremely parsimonious Dutch, who had declined the brand new hull of a USN BB in the twenties, decided to spend an unprecedented amount of money and embark on a multiyear long construction program for 3 unprecedented Dutch battlecruisers.
Source.

Quote:
Finland did quite well with the D.XXI also (they evn built 50 themselves with Swedish engines) and did not fight the Zero, just Soviets. The USN could not have done worse with the Buffalo (much worse actually than the Dutch with inferior engines).
Considering that the D.XXI entered service years before the Buffalo & was much less expensive, better built, more reliable & easier to maintain, one can only conclude that Brewster was a retard compared to Fokker & that the USN must have received good bribes to acquire it.
Source


Quote:
I referred to the dismal USN sub perfomance in 1941, early 42 & you counter with DD action. Cheers, have another pint.
I was too. The US did better than the Dutch in the Pacific in submarine warfare.
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  #67  
Old 18 Dec 15, 21:01
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I added something about Nimitz to the prevvious post.

So you are referring to US subs when you mention DD, I see now have another pint.
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  #68  
Old 18 Dec 15, 21:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I added something about Nimitz to the prevvious post.

So you are referring to US subs when you mention DD, I see now have another pint.
Re-read my post. US DD's did better in the SWPA than US subs did in the early days of the war and US subs did better than Dutch ones.

You'd be wrong about Nimitz too. The planes sent to Midway were those available. The number sent was in part limited by parking space on the island's air field.
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  #69  
Old 18 Dec 15, 22:32
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Yeah parking space had to be reserved for useless B-17 & there were 25 P-38 & plenty of B-26 in Alaska & about 200 P-40 & 40 B-25 in Hawaii. Only an astrologist would put the worst fighters & anti shipping bombers & the only dive bomber pilots who had never dive bombed in the most valuable real estate, facing the most formidable force in the world
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  #70  
Old 18 Dec 15, 23:24
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Yeah parking space had to be reserved for useless B-17 & there were 25 P-38 & plenty of B-26 in Alaska & about 200 P-40 & 40 B-25 in Hawaii. Only an astrologist would put the worst fighters & anti shipping bombers & the only dive bomber pilots who had never dive bombed in the most valuable real estate, facing the most formidable force in the world

It turned out not to be too formidable though didn't it?
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  #71  
Old 18 Dec 15, 23:27
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Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
It turned out not to be too formidable though didn't it?
Only after it's bombing failed to neutralize the island and all of the carriers present were sunk... Making it the second most formidable force in the Pacific right behind the US fleet off Midway and the forces on Midway...
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  #72  
Old 18 Dec 15, 23:49
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It should be noted that Nimitz asked the garrison commander of Midway personally what he wanted, about 3-4 weeks before the battle, AFAIK he got what he wanted, with them starting to show up the week before.

Though I have no idea what the actual contents of his "shopping list" was.
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  #73  
Old 19 Dec 15, 01:03
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That the USAAF was involved at all is slightly odd actually. The island was defended by a USMC command and the airstrip was a USN air base, as was the seaplane base.
It isn't normal for the USAAF to operate from naval airfields.
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  #74  
Old 19 Dec 15, 01:04
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Look at the other posts, there is plenty of them.
There is (are?) plenty of what?

Incidentally, I did ask you to refer me to the post in which I apparently stated that the Dutch operated obsolete British boats in the Atlantic. You have not, as yet, done so. Do you intend to reply or must we simply accept that you have been hearing those voices again?

Coco the Clown indeed!

When do you intend to bring Pantelleria into this, by the way? Five pages in and no mention. This really isn't like you.
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  #75  
Old 19 Dec 15, 02:13
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As far as I know, the Dutch received some T class boats to operate after the fall of the Netherlands. Those weren't obsolete by any measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_T-class_submarine
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