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  #46  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:10
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Both.

The European war started in September 1939.

The Pacific War started in December 1941.

The Sino-Chinese war started in July 1937.

So, your gratuitous ad hominem is a non sequitur.

Oh, on the snorkel... The Germans initially didn't consider it a workable solution. It was mostly out of desperation and a change in design using the entire boat as an air supply that they managed to get it to work.
The change was necessary to have an air source for the engines when the float valve on the snorkel closed. This caused the boat to draw air from inside until it reopened. Very hard on a crew by the way.
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  #47  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
T. A. when You say prior to the war, do you mean the actual war we are discussing, which began on 1 Sept, 1939 or the ignorant, American version of the war, which started on 7 Dec, 1941?
Where do you, of all people, get off thinking you can insult a whole country of people like that?

The start date of Dec 7 1941 is perfectly viable when speaking of Dutch arms imports, as the Dutch East Indies is where most of that the US was sending went.

And to make the real point here; the war for Holland started May 10, 1940.
Hello?

Or better yet; goodbye.
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  #48  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I was addressing T. A.'s absurd, categorical statement regarding automatic declaration of war by Belgium if Luxemburg is invaded. You even more absurdly claimed that monetary parity was evidence to support T.A.

What the hell can Belgium do if Germany invades Luxemburg on 26 April? Even France couldn't do anything, much less Belgium. It cannot attack & declaring war & throwing away neutrality solves no problems for Belgium it only invits prompt destruction of its aircraft & bombng of its cities before Germany invades it.

Even if Belgium does declare war & allows the allies in, that works even better for German invasion on 10 May, by whch time all the allied forces will be entrenched in Belgium.
I was addressing T. A.'s absurd, categorical statement regarding automatic declaration of war by Belgium if Luxemburg is invaded. You even more absurdly claimed that monetary parity was evidence to support T.A.

I really do not think that you are in a position to call anyone 'absurd'

My reference to monetary parity (and the abolition of most border posts, which you appear to have forgotten) was to confirm Mr. Gardner's earlier exposition of the close relationship between Belgium and Luxembourg. I regret that your understanding of the politics of the time is so superficial that you cannot grasp the obvious, but I suppose I should not be surprised.
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  #49  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Both.

The European war started in September 1939.

The Pacific War started in December 1941.

The Sino-Chinese war started in July 1937.

So, your gratuitous ad hominem is a non sequitur.

Oh, on the snorkel... The Germans initially didn't consider it a workable solution. It was mostly out of desperation and a change in design using the entire boat as an air supply that they managed to get it to work.
The change was necessary to have an air source for the engines when the float valve on the snorkel closed. This caused the boat to draw air from inside until it reopened. Very hard on a crew by the way.
We are talking about France in 1940, so the 30 bloody armored vehicles (with tires, unlike the Pz I, quite unsuited either for Holland or the DEI) delivered in 1941 under L-L have absolutely no relevance in this discussion.

I mentioned the snorkel to counter Doventon's statement that Holland had only old British subs in the Atlantic.

You are extremely adept at missing the point & providing irrelevant information.
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  #50  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
T. A. when You say prior to the war, do you mean the actual war we are discussing, which began on 1 Sept, 1939 or the ignorant, American version of the war, which started on 7 Dec, 1941?
Actually, for the British, the Second World War began on 3rd September, 1939, and for the United States on 7th December 1941.

I do not think that you are in any position to call anyone else 'ignorant' by the way, and certainly not the individuals to whom your remark is addressed.
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  #51  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
We are talking about France in 1940, so the 30 bloody armored vehicles (with tires, unlike the Pz I, quite unsuited either for Holland or the DEI) delivered in 1941 under L-L have absolutely no relevance in this discussion.

I mentioned the snorkel to counter Doventon's statement that Holland had only old British subs in the Atlantic.

You are extremely adept at missing the point & providing irrelevant information.
I mentioned the snorkel to counter Doveton's statement that Holland had only old British subs in the Atlantic.

Remind me when I said that. I have no recollection of making any such comment.
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  #52  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
I was addressing T. A.'s absurd, categorical statement regarding automatic declaration of war by Belgium if Luxemburg is invaded. You even more absurdly claimed that monetary parity was evidence to support T.A.

I really do not think that you are in a position to call anyone 'absurd'

My reference to monetary parity (and the abolition of most border posts, which you appear to have forgotten) was to confirm Mr. Gardner's earlier exposition of the close relationship between Belgium and Luxembourg. I regret that your understanding of the politics of the time is so superficial that you cannot grasp the obvious, but I suppose I should not be surprised.
There were several border position on 10 May 1939.

I regret that the 2 of You insist that invading Luxemburg can spoil WW II for Gemrnay by upsetting their mighty Belgian committed & suicidal guardians.
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  #53  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies.

Perhaps you would enlighten us by explaining exactly which Dutch submarines were to be handed over to Germany in exchange for the useless Pz Is which you apparently believe the Dutch would be delighted to receive.

In May 1940 the Dutch navy had a total of 27 boats either in service or under construction. Of these, 11 were obsolete vessels.

15 boats ( all the long range 'K' types plus 016, 019, & 020 ) were in the Dutch East Indies. The boats in home waters were 08 (a former British 'H' class built in 1915), 09 - 011 (obsolete boats built in 1925), 012 - 015 (built 1931) and 021 - 024 (modern boats still under construction or fitting out). If the exchange was to take place before the invasion of Poland, then 021 - 024 must be discounted, which leaves just 4 modern boats and 4 obsolete boats.

Aren't facts a nuisance? No wonder you choose to ignore them.
I stated Germany trading Pz I, Do-17, etc, for 2 or 3 subs which is less than 4. So facts are always pleasant.
2 or 3 subs are far more valuable for Germany to begin the war than Pz I, etc, especially, since Germany can continue acquiring Dutch subs during the war if it does not invade Holland. And withouth having to occupy it. Such purchases provide at least some use for the gold seized by Germany in all its campaigns. Especially SA & Britain in this scenario.

BTW, Germnay had extremely few U-boats on 1 Sep & many of them outdated & unsuited for ocean foreys.

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 15:39..
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  #54  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I stated Germany trading Pz I, Do-17, etc, for 2 or 3 subs which is less than 4. So facts are always pleasant.
2 or 3 subs are far more valuable for Germany to begin the war than Pz I, etc, especially, since Germany can continue acquiring Dutch subs during the war if it does not invade Holland. And withouth having to occupy it. Such purchases provide at least some use for the gold seized by Germany in all its campaigns. Especially SA & Britain in this scenario.

BTW, Germnay had extremely few U-boats on 1 Sep & many of them outdated & unsuited for ocean foreys.


I stated Germany trading Pz I, Do-17, etc, for 2 or 3 subs which is less than 4. So facts are always pleasant.

Actually your post 32 reads as follows:-

In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies. So the allies will fare even worse than the Germans did in Holland.

Where is the reference to 2 or 3 subs? I appreciate that you post so much nonsense that you must find it difficult to keep track, but really, you must try harder!

BTW, Germnay had extremely few U-boats on 1 Sep & many of them outdated & unsuited for ocean foreys

With as much respect as you deserve, I really do not think that there is anything at all that someone like you can teach me, (or Mr. Gardner, or any of the other numerous contributors who find your posts so amusing if sadly infantile) about the U-Boat fleet available to Germany ( or, to use your spelling, Germnay) in the Second World War.
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  #55  
Old 18 Dec 15, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
There were several border position on 10 May 1939.

I regret that the 2 of You insist that invading Luxemburg can spoil WW II for Gemrnay by upsetting their mighty Belgian committed & suicidal guardians.
Whilst I, for my part, regret the fact that you have apparently lost the ability to spell 'Germany.' Or should that be 'Gemrnay,' or even 'Germnay.?'

Perhaps in future you could use the expression much loved by the British press in World War One, which you might find less of a trial:-

THE BEASTLY HUN.
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  #56  
Old 18 Dec 15, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
[/B]

I stated Germany trading Pz I, Do-17, etc, for 2 or 3 subs which is less than 4. So facts are always pleasant.

Actually your post 32 reads as follows:-

In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies. So the allies will fare even worse than the Germans did in Holland.

Where is the reference to 2 or 3 subs? I appreciate that you post so much nonsense that you must find it difficult to keep track, but really, you must try harder!

BTW, Germnay had extremely few U-boats on 1 Sep & many of them outdated & unsuited for ocean foreys

With as much respect as you deserve, I really do not think that there is anything at all that someone like you can teach me, (or Mr. Gardner, or any of the other numerous contributors who find your posts so amusing if sadly infantile) about the U-Boat fleet available to Germany ( or, to use your spelling, Germnay) in the Second World War.
Look at the other posts, there is plenty of them.
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  #57  
Old 18 Dec 15, 16:24
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Kluge's strong division in this scenario is naturally Rommel's 7th, Phantom Division & given Rommel's personal intervention during the crossing of the Meuse (getting in the water to inspire & help the Pioniere to work fast), it will cross the Meuse even before Guderian does. and given its rate of advance & the fact that it has even heavier air support & help from airborne troops to capture bridges, etc, it will reach Dunkirk (just 235 km away) even before 21 May. On the other hand, troops air lifted to the airfield near Dunkirk captured by airborne troops will advance with air support toward Kluge's force to meet it perhaps 50 km from Dunkirk, closing the pocket perhaps by 19 May.
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  #58  
Old 18 Dec 15, 16:41
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from http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=32

On 3 May, Abwehr Colonel Hans Oster, an ardent anti-Nazi, sent a word of warning to the Dutch government through Colonel G. J. Sas of the Dutch embassy. The message, with the exact date for the invasion, was sent to the Hague via a courier on the next day. The warning was received and shared with Belgium, but none of the two countries decided to share the intelligence with Britain and France. On 9 May, Oster once again met with Sas and confirmed that the invasion was to take place the following morning, and another message was sent to the Hague. For whatever reason, the Dutch and Belgian governments again failed to share the news with Britain and France. In the morning of 10 May, as Oster warned, the German Army Group B marched into the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg, and conquered all three nations quickly.

So Belgium & Holland guarded their neutrality completely until the very minute they were invaded. Had Belgium decided to side with the allies upon receiving this information, the allies would have entered Belgium much earlier & been cough even further from France. The allies were lucky that the neutrals did not cooperate more.
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  #59  
Old 18 Dec 15, 16:53
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The biggest problem you have with your scenario is that it is built on 20/20 hind sight. No one expected Guderian to break out and run through France the way he did. This is one of the main reasons why the German high command kept issuing stop orders to him. They were concerned that he was moving into a trap. No one thought that the French army would simply fall apart through lack of coherent orders as quickly as it did.
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  #60  
Old 18 Dec 15, 17:46
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Guderian, Manstein, Höppner, Kluge, Rommel, etc, certainly counted on such fast advance to throw the allies out of balance & prevent reinforcement. Hitler, Brauchitsch, Halder, Rundstedt, etc, were too dull to understand the importance of rapid advance, even so late as Barbarossa.

Precisely because the dull leaders were terrified of long unprotected flanks, it is of paramount importance to minimze the length of the routes (& hence supply & reinforcement lines).

Norrent-Fontés is an ideal location for an airborne assault around 15 May, to capture a landing area for airlifted troops, supplies, etc, simultaneously with an airborne assault on Dunkirk.

From a LW source:

General: landing ground in NE France 21 km SSE of St-Omer, 3.5 km SW
of Norrent-Fontè and 1 km SE of the village of Rely. History: a French
landing ground used by both the French military and the RAF during 1939-
40. Limited Luftwaffe activity there to the end of 1942. Surface and
Dimensions: grass surface measuring approx. 1415 x 1050 meters (1550 x
1150 yards) with an “L” shape. No paved runway, but the main road
passing 500 meters to the SW could be used as one. Fuel and Ammunition:
refueling points were located on the SE and SW sides of the landing area
with fuel tanks probably in the same places. Ammunition was stored on the
S edge of the South dispersal and the W edge of the North dispersal.
Infrastructure: had 1 small repair hangar each in the North and South
dispersal areas. The station HQ and billeting were in the village of Auchyau-
Bois, just S of the landing area, and additional accommodations were in
the village of Rely. The nearest rail connection was in Auchy. Dispersal:
the North and South dispersal areas had a total of at least 63 small covered
aircraft shelters concealed among village houses and cut into the line of
nearby woods. The majority of the shelters were camouflaged to look like
houses. Defenses: strongly defended by 2 heavy and 11 light Flak
positions within 3 km of the landing area. Ground defenses included several
machine gun positions and a defensive trench system in the South dispersal.


Troops from here can link with those from Dunkirk & advance ESE to link up with the Phantom Division.Rapidly closing the pocket.

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 17:54..
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