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  #31  
Old 18 Dec 15, 07:22
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On post 1 Draco tells us how France would invade Switserland,Belgium,Spain, Cyprus, Egypt, South Africa, Ceylon and Tasmania and I forgot : the SU .

In the old days he told us that Japan would invade Ceylon . Now his opinion has changed :a big French fleet would leave Toulon and go to Ceylon .Maybe later it would sail to LA .

Personally I prefer the scenario of Star Wars VII.

Question : if France could invade the SU (revenge of Napoleon),why could it not invade Germany ?
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  #32  
Old 18 Dec 15, 10:30
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T.A.
Your Belgian quote about WW I has nothing to do with Lxemburg, much less with WW II when there are 5,000 LW planes, instead of German cavalry threatening Belgium.

Everybody
What part of invading only the Belgian Ardennes do You not understand? The allies simply didn't think that armor could go through it & had 2 deficient divisions there, which were promptly pushed back.
Upon invasion of the Belgian Ardennes from Luxemburg at 0340 10 May, 1940 (because Lux was invaded on April 26 in this scenario) allied motorized divisions would begin to prepare to enter Belgium, which OTL they did at 1000. By that time Guderian is deep into the Ardennes, as are infantry forces heading W to set up a atrong defensive line in the Ardennes. In the meantime the allies advance north & the Belgians prepare to defend their fortresses, which are never attacked.
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies. So the allies will fare even worse than the Germans did in Holland.

Because there are only 3 strong PZ divisions breaking through at Sedan & all 3 use the same area to cross, all the LW (planes & FLAK), airborne units, etc, are available to support them, so they are even more formidable & successful.
Instead of changing direction (losing momentum) in Reims to head for ABbeville Guderian continues to Chateau Thierry.
Instead of Guderian wasting time capturing Boulogne & Calais from Abbeville, Kluge is heading directly from Sedan to Dunkirk. Höppner is heading SE from Sedan to sever the RR Paris-Verdun & to follow it to Paris. So that by 21 May the allies are trapped in Belgium-Holland, France is defeated & Germany has lost very few planes, tanks & men (it did not fight in Holland or outside of the Ardennes in Belgium & it the 3 Pz columns had incredible support)

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 10:38..
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  #33  
Old 18 Dec 15, 11:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
France is defeated & Germany has lost very few planes, tanks & men (it did not fight in Holland or outside of the Ardennes in Belgium & it the 3 Pz columns had incredible support)
Achhh donnerfetter !
So now everything is ready for a good old....SEALION !
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  #34  
Old 18 Dec 15, 11:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
T.A.
Your Belgian quote about WW I has nothing to do with Lxemburg, much less with WW II when there are 5,000 LW planes, instead of German cavalry threatening Belgium.

Everybody
What part of invading only the Belgian Ardennes do You not understand? The allies simply didn't think that armor could go through it & had 2 deficient divisions there, which were promptly pushed back.
Upon invasion of the Belgian Ardennes from Luxemburg at 0340 10 May, 1940 (because Lux was invaded on April 26 in this scenario) allied motorized divisions would begin to prepare to enter Belgium, which OTL they did at 1000. By that time Guderian is deep into the Ardennes, as are infantry forces heading W to set up a atrong defensive line in the Ardennes. In the meantime the allies advance north & the Belgians prepare to defend their fortresses, which are never attacked.
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies. So the allies will fare even worse than the Germans did in Holland.

Because there are only 3 strong PZ divisions breaking through at Sedan & all 3 use the same area to cross, all the LW (planes & FLAK), airborne units, etc, are available to support them, so they are even more formidable & successful.
Instead of changing direction (losing momentum) in Reims to head for ABbeville Guderian continues to Chateau Thierry.
Instead of Guderian wasting time capturing Boulogne & Calais from Abbeville, Kluge is heading directly from Sedan to Dunkirk. Höppner is heading SE from Sedan to sever the RR Paris-Verdun & to follow it to Paris. So that by 21 May the allies are trapped in Belgium-Holland, France is defeated & Germany has lost very few planes, tanks & men (it did not fight in Holland or outside of the Ardennes in Belgium & it the 3 Pz columns had incredible support)
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies.

Perhaps you would enlighten us by explaining exactly which Dutch submarines were to be handed over to Germany in exchange for the useless Pz Is which you apparently believe the Dutch would be delighted to receive.

In May 1940 the Dutch navy had a total of 27 boats either in service or under construction. Of these, 11 were obsolete vessels.

15 boats ( all the long range 'K' types plus 016, 019, & 020 ) were in the Dutch East Indies. The boats in home waters were 08 (a former British 'H' class built in 1915), 09 - 011 (obsolete boats built in 1925), 012 - 015 (built 1931) and 021 - 024 (modern boats still under construction or fitting out). If the exchange was to take place before the invasion of Poland, then 021 - 024 must be discounted, which leaves just 4 modern boats and 4 obsolete boats.

Aren't facts a nuisance? No wonder you choose to ignore them.
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  #35  
Old 18 Dec 15, 12:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco;3147327[B
]So You don't have any evidence at all to back your absurd statement that invading Luxemburg equals certain Belgian declaration of War.[/B]

You miss the whole scenario.
option a) Belgium &/or Switzerland allows passage to avoid destruction: The Maginot has been outflanked, Britain evacuates, France has to admit defeat. Britain has to attack the French fleet, which turns an intact & strong France against Britain, benefitting both France & the axis enormously (France is a much better ally than weak & incompetent Italy or distant & irrational Japan at war with huge China. The axis is a much better ally for France than Poland or Britain).

option b) Belgium & Switzerland refuse passage choosing certain destruction: Germany is already in Luxemburg & can invade the Ardennes saving the morning it took to advance through Luxemburg removing road blocks, building ramps over steel gates, etc, Guserian arrives in Sedan with plenty of daylight for planes to blast the allies across the Meuse, so Guderian can start bridging the Meuse without being shelled & the allies have no time to reinforce the area. Kluge & Höppner also cross in teh same area, so the Luftwaffe does not have to clear several areas, as OTL in Dinant & Montherme.
So You don't have any evidence at all to back your absurd statement that invading Luxemburg equals certain Belgian declaration of War.

Actually, Mr. Gardner does. The Belgium-Luxembourg Economic Union had existed since the Treaty of July 1921, which had pegged at parity the currencies of the two states, and border posts had been largely abolished. There was no military alliance, largely because the army of Luxembourg at the time consisted of less than 500 men, but just as Belgium looked to France & Great Britain as guarantors of her security, so Luxembourg looked to Belgium.

Perhaps a good book on the nature of politics & international relations in the Western Europe of the inter-war period would help to rid you of at least some of your current fanciful & far-fetched notions.

Or there again, perhaps not.
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  #36  
Old 18 Dec 15, 13:07
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Abbeville is WNW of Sedan, not N and the idiots who rejected the plan were the same who had rejected the sickle cut altogether & sent Manstein to Poland to stop bothering them & were forced by Hitler to addopt the sickle cut. I doubt that they knew better than Manstein or even I.

In any event, it is absurd to go WNW to Abbeville, Noyelles, Boulogne & Calais first (leaving a hell of a long supply line, while the allies can evaquate in Dunkirk & one can advance NW from Sedan directly to Dunkirk (which the airborne untis have already secured before Kluge arrives. Remember that in this scneario they are not wasted in neutral Holland & Belgium, but used in France, the actual enemy)

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 13:14..
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  #37  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies.

Perhaps you would enlighten us by explaining exactly which Dutch submarines were to be handed over to Germany in exchange for the useless Pz Is which you apparently believe the Dutch would be delighted to receive.

In May 1940 the Dutch navy had a total of 27 boats either in service or under construction. Of these, 11 were obsolete vessels.

15 boats ( all the long range 'K' types plus 016, 019, & 020 ) were in the Dutch East Indies. The boats in home waters were 08 (a former British 'H' class built in 1915), 09 - 011 (obsolete boats built in 1925), 012 - 015 (built 1931) and 021 - 024 (modern boats still under construction or fitting out). If the exchange was to take place before the invasion of Poland, then 021 - 024 must be discounted, which leaves just 4 modern boats and 4 obsolete boats.

Aren't facts a nuisance? No wonder you choose to ignore them.
The Dutch had spent almost nothing in armament until 1936, when they started investing very little.
They knew that Japan was going to attack the invaluable DEI (oil, nickel, rubber, tea, coffee, tin, etc, & 2 orders of magnitude more land than Holland) which had a few thousand Dutch & 69 million natives being agitated by Japan.
Holland needed armament desperately to defend the DEI. They ordered 120 105 mm cannon from Germany both to boost their armed forced (DEI & Holland) & to determine if Germany was going to invade them or not. IF they were delivered it was likely that Germany would respect Dutch beutrality (as in WW I), if they were not delivered, Germany was likely to invade.
If Germany delivers those guns & ammunition & offers even planes, 200 tanks (even the Pz I was better than the Dutch armored cars, etc,), etc, & did not deploy any troops along the Dutch border, Holland would be certain that it would not be invaded by Germany. So it could deploy some of the armament to the invaluable DEI & the rest along the allied border (to defend its neutrality & avoid German reprisals if the allies invade Holland). Trading 2 or 3 submarines based in Holland (which would be little use if Holland is invaded by land) for Do 17, tanks, guns, munitons, mortars & a few Bf 109 (like those Switzerland bought) makes a lot of sense.


Is that why the Germans captured Dutch subs with snorkels when they invaded?
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  #38  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:12
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Doveton,
I never thought monetary parity implies Belgium declaring war & sending troops beyond its forts to attack Germany, even if Belgium is not invaded. There was absolutely no military commitment. And even if there were a secrete verbal agreement of which only T.A & YOU are aware. I already mentioned that despite a solemn, written comitment to inavde Germany with 50 divs. within 15 days of declaring war, a much stronger France ignored it completely (although there were only 12 German divisions opposing France at the time).

The only reason Belgium fought is that it was attacked with overwhelming force in Eben Enael, Liege, etc, and Holland was invaded. If Germany invades the Ardennes only, the Belgians are not going to waste their tanks, etc, in a counter offensive, they simply man their fortresses. Just like France & Britian did nothing for 8 months.

Last edited by Dracoco; 18 Dec 15 at 14:22..
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  #39  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
T.A.
Your Belgian quote about WW I has nothing to do with Lxemburg, much less with WW II when there are 5,000 LW planes, instead of German cavalry threatening Belgium.

Everybody
What part of invading only the Belgian Ardennes do You not understand? The allies simply didn't think that armor could go through it & had 2 deficient divisions there, which were promptly pushed back.
Upon invasion of the Belgian Ardennes from Luxemburg at 0340 10 May, 1940 (because Lux was invaded on April 26 in this scenario) allied motorized divisions would begin to prepare to enter Belgium, which OTL they did at 1000. By that time Guderian is deep into the Ardennes, as are infantry forces heading W to set up a atrong defensive line in the Ardennes. In the meantime the allies advance north & the Belgians prepare to defend their fortresses, which are never attacked.
In this scenario Holland received the 120 105 mm guns it ordered from Germany plus 300 Pz I, several Do-17, a few Bf 109, etc, which Germany traded for Dutch submarines before invading Poland, so Holland can defend its neutrality against the allies. So the allies will fare even worse than the Germans did in Holland.

Because there are only 3 strong PZ divisions breaking through at Sedan & all 3 use the same area to cross, all the LW (planes & FLAK), airborne units, etc, are available to support them, so they are even more formidable & successful.
Instead of changing direction (losing momentum) in Reims to head for ABbeville Guderian continues to Chateau Thierry.
Instead of Guderian wasting time capturing Boulogne & Calais from Abbeville, Kluge is heading directly from Sedan to Dunkirk. Höppner is heading SE from Sedan to sever the RR Paris-Verdun & to follow it to Paris. So that by 21 May the allies are trapped in Belgium-Holland, France is defeated & Germany has lost very few planes, tanks & men (it did not fight in Holland or outside of the Ardennes in Belgium & it the 3 Pz columns had incredible support)
There were NO 5000 planes threatening Belgium .

Number of operational German combat aircraft on the whole western front on 10 may 1940:2589 (The Blitzkrieg Legend P 45).
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  #40  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:14
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I didn't say operational. Actually the allies estimated (in their infinite wisdom) that there were 8,000 LW planes.
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  #41  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:34
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Comparing what the Dutch ordered from Germany, mostly for home defense, with what they ordered from Britain and the US mostly for the DEI, the German contribution was miniscule.

For example, the Dutch ordered 628 Marmon-Harrington CTLS / MTLS light tanks from US factories of which about 30 were delivered prior to the war. That is a scale of export production that Germany couldn't match.
Same goes for aircraft. They ordered hundreds of different aircraft from US manufacturers, including the CW 21, B-332 Buffalo, B-25, PBY, SBD, among other types.
Even the 121 Martin B-10's they already had in service were viable planes in that theater.

Becoming a neutral favoring Germany would have been a major mistake for the Dutch. The Allies would have cut off most imports outside food starving their industrial output. It makes zero sense that the Dutch could be essentially bribed into neutrality with some largely worthless junk the Germans were getting rid of in any case.

Oh, the Dutch Landeswerk M36 - 38 armored cars are better than the Pz I.

They have 2 machineguns and a 37mm cannon mounted on them.

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  #42  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
Doveton,
I never thought monetary parity implies Belgium declaring war & sending troops beyond its forts to attack Germany, even if Belgium is not invaded. There was absolutely no military commitment. And even if there were a secrete verbal agreement of which only T.A & YOU are aware. I already mentioned that despite a solemn, written comitment to inavde Germany with 50 divs. within 15 days of declaring war, a much stronger France ignored it completely (although there were only 12 German divisions opposing France at the time).

The only reason Belgium fought is that it was attacked with overwhelming force in Eben Enael, Liege, etc, and Holland was invaded. If Germany invades the Ardennes only, the Belgians are not going to waste their tanks, etc, in a counter offensive, they simply man their fortresses. Just like France & Britian did nothing for 8 months.
I never thought monetary parity implies Belgium declaring war & sending troops beyond its forts to attack Germany, even if Belgium is not invaded. There was absolutely no military commitment. And even if there were a secrete verbal agreement of which only T.A & YOU are aware.

I never claimed that it did, I certainly did not suggest that Belgium would attack Germany if Luxembourg was invaded, and I actually remarked that there was no military treaty. How could there be, when Luxembourg did not have an army? Actually, neither Mr. Gardner nor I made any reference to any secret verbal agreement.

If, however, you really believe that Belgium would have blithely accepted a German invasion of Luxembourg with a phlegmatic shrug of the shoulders, then you really do need to buy that book on Western Europe during the inter-war period that I referred to earlier.

Perhaps you should address yourself to what posts placed by others actually say, and not simply invent non-existent statements to attempt to justify your own silliness and ignorance.
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  #43  
Old 18 Dec 15, 14:55
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I was addressing T. A.'s absurd, categorical statement regarding automatic declaration of war by Belgium if Luxemburg is invaded. You even more absurdly claimed that monetary parity was evidence to support T.A.

What the hell can Belgium do if Germany invades Luxemburg on 26 April? Even France couldn't do anything, much less Belgium. It cannot attack & declaring war & throwing away neutrality solves no problems for Belgium it only invits prompt destruction of its aircraft & bombng of its cities before Germany invades it.

Even if Belgium does declare war & allows the allies in, that works even better for German invasion on 10 May, by whch time all the allied forces will be entrenched in Belgium.
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Old 18 Dec 15, 15:05
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T. A. when You say prior to the war, do you mean the actual war we are discussing, which began on 1 Sept, 1939 or the ignorant, American version of the war, which started on 7 Dec, 1941?
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  #45  
Old 18 Dec 15, 15:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
The Dutch had spent almost nothing in armament until 1936, when they started investing very little.
They knew that Japan was going to attack the invaluable DEI (oil, nickel, rubber, tea, coffee, tin, etc, & 2 orders of magnitude more land than Holland) which had a few thousand Dutch & 69 million natives being agitated by Japan.
Holland needed armament desperately to defend the DEI. They ordered 120 105 mm cannon from Germany both to boost their armed forced (DEI & Holland) & to determine if Germany was going to invade them or not. IF they were delivered it was likely that Germany would respect Dutch beutrality (as in WW I), if they were not delivered, Germany was likely to invade.
If Germany delivers those guns & ammunition & offers even planes, 200 tanks (even the Pz I was better than the Dutch armored cars, etc,), etc, & did not deploy any troops along the Dutch border, Holland would be certain that it would not be invaded by Germany. So it could deploy some of the armament to the invaluable DEI & the rest along the allied border (to defend its neutrality & avoid German reprisals if the allies invade Holland). Trading 2 or 3 submarines based in Holland (which would be little use if Holland is invaded by land) for Do 17, tanks, guns, munitons, mortars & a few Bf 109 (like those Switzerland bought) makes a lot of sense.


Is that why the Germans captured Dutch subs with snorkels when they invaded?


Is that why the Germans captured Dutch subs with snorkels when they invaded?

I am not sure of the relevance of this comment, although to be strictly accurate, the Dutch boats were equipped with 'Sniffers' a device little more than a rudimentary pipe. The British also received four boats of the 021 class, which also had sniffers fitted, but after a few trials the device was removed before the boats became operational.

The best that can be said of the sniffer is that it gave the Germans the idea for the Schnorkel, but a complete redesign was required, which is why the device only became operational in 1944, by which time the Anglo-Americans had won the Battle of the Atlantic.

Really, I thought that you would have known this.

They ordered 120 105 mm cannon from Germany both to boost their armed forced (DEI & Holland) & to determine if Germany was going to invade them or not. IF they were delivered it was likely that Germany would respect Dutch neutrality (as in WW I), if they were not delivered, Germany was likely to invade.

Compared to what the Dutch had ordered from the United States, this was a drop in a bucket.

Incidentally, as part of the German Soviet Commercial Agreement of February, 1940, the Germans agreed to supply to the Soviet Union :-

The incomplete Hipper class cruiser Lützow, the plans for the battleship Bismarck, information on German naval testing, "complete machinery for a large destroyer", heavy naval guns, three 38.1 cm twin turrets to defend ports, preliminary sketches for a 40.6 cm triple turret, working drawings for a 28 cm turret, other naval gear and samples of thirty of Germany's latest warplanes, including the Me-109 fighter, Me-110 fighter and Ju-88 bomber. Stalin believed the Lützow to be important because of its new 20.3 cm naval guns, along with their performance characteristics. The Soviets would also receive oil and electric equipment, locomotives, turbines, generators, diesel engines, ships, machine tools and samples of Germany artillery, tanks, explosives, chemical-warfare equipment and other items.

Clearly, if the Germans were willing to supply all the above, then Joe could be confident that Adolf would never attack him.

That worked out well, didn't it?
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