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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #1  
Old 01 Dec 15, 18:43
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Modern tanks at Kursk

I would like to know how many modern tanks it would take for the Germans to rout the Soviet forces. What would be the bare minimum to turn the tide? What would be the logistical maximum to destroy the Soviets? Which kinds of tanks and manned by what country would you bring? Which specific armored unit would you bring or would you create your own out the current armored inventory? If you created your own how much of what would you bring? Also at what point in the Battle of Kursk would they be most advantageous? What would be the point in the battle where the Soviets could still win?
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  #2  
Old 01 Dec 15, 20:39
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I think it would take more than tanks to make this switch work. Sure, something like Leopard II's or M1's would trash Soviet armor and even many gun positions. But, their relatively small ammo loads, even if every shot counted, and lack of a good logistical train would be crippling. Plus, they wouldn't be immune to mines and just being taken out in one way or another.

Actually, I'd say giving the Germans modern attack helicopters like the AH 64 with something like a few Guardrail planes in support would be far more vicious. These could easily have taken out gun positions, broken up concentrations of reserves, blasted headquarters positions, and the like.
That would have a devastating effect on the defense. A helo that fire from near or complete cover from 3 to 5 thousand yards out and blow up camouflaged gun position or headquarters one after another. Being able to blow up a tank with gunfire would just add insult to injury.
Say, give the Germans 50 per front 100 total with say 10 surveillance planes for each front.
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Old 07 Dec 15, 09:21
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Hi

Any modern MBT manned by almost any capable military would have destroyed the Russian tank forces they met, but as TAG mentioned, losses would still be incurred by mines, AT-TK guns/rifles, artillery and even Russian tans with luck shots etc.

Regards

Andy H
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Old 07 Dec 15, 10:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
But, their relatively small ammo loads, even if every shot counted, and lack of a good logistical train would be crippling.
That is the Achilles Heel. Logistical support has changed little in 70 years. We have more cross-country mobility, but that's about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
A helo that fire from near or complete cover from 3 to 5 thousand yards out and blow up camouflaged gun position or headquarters one after another.
The Delta model Apache can fire it's complete load of 16 Hellfires from behind cover. The only exposure would be a bob of the mast mounted radar, of one aircraft, to take a radar image. Targets would be assigned to each Hellfire in the aircraft and remaining targets would be assigned to other aircraft in the troop electronically. If you include OH-58D's in the mix, none of the AH-64D's need be exposed. The radar Hellfire has a range of 8K meters.

There again, logistics is the problem. Turn around time for refuel/rearm is around 30-45 mins, not including flight time to and from the FARP. During regular gunnery, our 84 ship ACR Attack Sqdn would go through 12-13,000 gallons of fuel a day.
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  #5  
Old 07 Dec 15, 12:26
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Tag has hit the nail on the head-amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.

Now, M-1s, for example, can shoot on the move, something Soviet WW2 tanks can not; they can engage accurately far in excess of any period tank, they can fight at night (thermal imaging) as easily as day. Period guns would likely only be able to achieve mobility kills. And in speed there's no comparison.

With logistics in place, M-1s could handle 8:1 odds, I figure, assuming quality crews and C3.
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  #6  
Old 18 May 16, 03:17
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They would cut through every soviet tank and field gun of the era but they aren't immune to artillery, mines or attack aircraft.
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