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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #1  
Old 01 Nov 15, 19:30
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King Tigers vs. U.S.

does anybody have good weblinks for details on specific engagements of the following encounters

King Tigers vs U.S. Shermans
Jagdpanthers vs. US Shermans
Panthers vs US Shermans

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 03 Nov 15, 04:37
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Panthers vs. Shermans? The battle of Arracourt. It's the case study for people fascinated by the German heavies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arracourt

Don't stop at online sources. If you can read an e-book, you need to spend no more than a couple of dollars or so to read Zaloga's book about this very subject (Panthers and Shermans).
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  #3  
Old 08 Nov 15, 18:19
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king tigers vs. u.s. armor

thanks for the info on Arracourt.

does anyone know of accounts for the other Tank vs. Tank scenarios i'm researching, especially Konigstiger vs. Sherman or vs. M-10

thanks
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  #4  
Old 09 Nov 15, 07:32
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The Königstigers performed relatively well in combat during the battle of the Bulge against Shermans and US tank destroyers - german accounts usually mention that most of them had to be abandoned, and/or destroyed by their own crews, due to mechanical breakdowns, rather than destroyed or incapacitated by enemy fire.

That is accurate, but if you read detailed accounts, you will find things like: "the tank had to take evasive maneuvers under fire by enemy AT guns, got stuck in a farm building and had to be abandoned", or "maneuvering on a narrow road after being hit by enemy fire, the tank slid in the roadside ditch and could not be moved out of it". In other words, the obvious shortcomings in maneuverability, mobility and mechanical reliability of the tank were all liabilities already on their own, but they were of course magnified when the vehicle had to move while engaged by the enemy.

For an example of things working fine for the Tiger IIs, you may wish to look up the Arloncourt engagement (yes, a name similar to Arracourt, sorry but that's the way it is). In a good ambush position with a long field of fire, no need to maneuver, the possiblity to exploit their long-range power and accuracy, the Tiger IIs did their work at best against a battalion of Shermans.
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Old 10 Nov 15, 05:06
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Didn't help that it was winter, the roads were turned to slush and this caused the fuel usage to rise alarmingly. Many German tanks were abandoned due to lack of fuel.
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  #6  
Old 10 Nov 15, 05:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Didn't help that it was winter, the roads were turned to slush and this caused the fuel usage to rise alarmingly. Many German tanks were abandoned due to lack of fuel.
Sure. Nor did it help that the Germans were universally short of fuel anyway by that time; or that they tried to run the operation on a shoestring, fervently relying on the capture of enemy fuel depots; or that their logistics was a mess anyway.

But the fact still remains that the Tiger II was designed from the start as a gas-guzzling monster. That was an inherent liability of the tank itself.
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Old 11 Nov 15, 01:51
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Sure. Nor did it help that the Germans were universally short of fuel anyway by that time; or that they tried to run the operation on a shoestring, fervently relying on the capture of enemy fuel depots; or that their logistics was a mess anyway.

But the fact still remains that the Tiger II was designed from the start as a gas-guzzling monster. That was an inherent liability of the tank itself.
It's almost as though they selected the worst possible kit for the operation and then planned to win because it had worked before. In summer, against the French. When the Germans had aircraft and fuel.
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Old 11 Nov 15, 10:19
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Sure. Nor did it help that the Germans were universally short of fuel anyway by that time; or that they tried to run the operation on a shoestring, fervently relying on the capture of enemy fuel depots; or that their logistics was a mess anyway.

But the fact still remains that the Tiger II was designed from the start as a gas-guzzling monster. That was an inherent liability of the tank itself.

Absolutely. Germany tactics actually devolved as the war progressed. They relied increasingly on heavier weapons that prevented them from effectively engaging in maneuver warfare that made them so deadly in the war's early years.

The overall German kill rate in fact decreased despite the introduction of supposedly superior Tiger and Panther tanks because most enemy tanks are destroyed by knocking out their supply system through maneuver warfare, not direct combat. Even in direct combat, it was almost always the lighter Stugs and Mk IVs that were more effective because they could maneuver to better shooting locations and seize key terrain while the heavy Panthers and Tigers were still on their way.

However, during those rare times when a Tiger or Panther get into battle with Shermans, their tactical superiority is decisive.
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Old 22 Nov 15, 02:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsenebrecht View Post
does anybody have good weblinks for details on specific engagements of the following encounters

King Tigers vs U.S. Shermans
Jagdpanthers vs. US Shermans
Panthers vs US Shermans

Thanks

OK not a Tiger II, but an early 75mm Sherman tank killed a Tiger I at Cecina, Italy. The shots were fired at point blank range in a urban setting. Fortunately, many photographs were taken afterward which makes the story all the more interesting.


http://www.752tank.com/cecina.html

Last edited by EKB; 22 Nov 15 at 02:36..
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Old 05 Jan 16, 10:03
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I dont know where it was but I read an American M5 Stewart tank took out a Tiger with three 37 mm rounds in the rear at point blank range. Ron
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Old 05 Jan 16, 19:34
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
It's almost as though they selected the worst possible kit for the operation and then planned to win because it had worked before. In summer, against the French. When the Germans had aircraft and fuel.
...and much lighter, more maneuverable tanks.
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Old 05 Jan 16, 19:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsenebrecht View Post
does anybody have good weblinks for details on specific engagements of the following encounters

King Tigers vs U.S. Shermans
Jagdpanthers vs. US Shermans
Panthers vs US Shermans

Thanks
Zaloga also makes reference (Armored Champion: The Top Tanks of World War II) to Sherman action in NWE, checking his bibliography may give you a guide to his source.

In Tank Tactics: From Normandy to Lorraine Roman Jarymowycz gives descriptions of tank v tank combat of US Shermans (I was flipping through it last night and saw references to Panther v. Sherman battles.)
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Last edited by JBark; 05 Jan 16 at 19:42..
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Old 07 Jan 16, 09:59
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I remember reading an account of a Daimler Armoured Car scooting round a bend and meeting a King Tiger, the scout car fired three shots from their 2pdr and damaged the Tiger's rear sprocket or track. The Tiger crew, who were stood around chatting, legged it into cover.
I'm sure I once mentioned this to Mick Kenny and he said he'd never heard/read it... it was so long ago, now I think I might have dreamt it!


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Old 07 Jan 16, 13:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
However, during those rare times when a Tiger or Panther get into battle with Shermans, their tactical superiority is decisive.
Panthers fought Shermans (UK, Commonwealth and US) countless times 1944-1945. It was by no means a rare occasion. Shermans were all over the place and Panthers were nearly as numerous as Panzer IVs (655 vs 758 in the West on June 10th 1944, 471 vs 503 on December 15th 1944). There weren't nearly as many Tigers, so obviously battles with these were not so common.
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Old 07 Jan 16, 13:48
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Tigers in the Ardennes: The 501st Heavy SS Tank Battalion in the Battle of the Bulge

http://www.amazon.com/Tigers-Ardenne.../dp/076434790X

most of the tiger battalions were in the East, and Pz IV and Panthers were frequently misidentified as tigers.
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