HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare by Other Means

Notices and Announcements

Warfare by Other Means Economics, demographics, cultural, technological, and other factors that have affected the course of history.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30 Sep 15, 01:30
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,210
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
All Warfare is Based Upon Deception

A first example for consideration;
Islam's doctrines of deception

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-d...s-of-deception
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 30 Sep 15, 12:19
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mario De Losa
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The roads of Hampton
Posts: 8,307
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
A first example for consideration;
Islam's doctrines of deception

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-d...s-of-deception
You could also point out that Hannibal Barca made extensive use of tactical deception and that Sun Tzu made a case for tactical deception as well, or is this boiling up to be an anti Muslim rant?
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30 Sep 15, 13:04
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,210
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
You could also point out that Hannibal Barca made extensive use of tactical deception and that Sun Tzu made a case for tactical deception as well, or is this boiling up to be an anti Muslim rant?
Nope.

Feel free to elaborate on either. I claim no personal or "anti-Islam" monopoly.
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01 Oct 15, 08:28
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mario De Losa
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The roads of Hampton
Posts: 8,307
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Nope.

Feel free to elaborate on either. I claim no personal or "anti-Islam" monopoly.
In that case you can start with Hannibal's victory at Lake Trasimine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Trasimene

In regards to Sun Tzu, this will get you pointed in the right direction.

Quote:
During the Gulf War in the 1990s, both Generals Norman Schwarzkopf Jr. and Colin Powell employed principles from Sun Tzu related to deception, speed, and striking one's enemy's weak points.[24] However, the United States and other Western countries have been criticised for not truly understanding Sun Tzu's work and not appreciating The Art of War within the wider context of Chinese society.[31]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu

And by the way, we do it too.

Quote:
The integrated employment of the core capabilities of electronic warfare, computer network operations, psychological operations, military deception, and operations security, in concert with specified supporting and related capabilities, to influence, disrupt, corrupt or usurp adversarial human and automated decision making while protecting our own.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho...United_States)
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02 Oct 15, 02:52
Drusus Nero's Avatar
Drusus Nero Drusus Nero is offline
Brigadier General
Australia
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Real Name: Christopher
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Capital North Oz
Posts: 2,463
Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200] Drusus Nero is walking in the light [200]
I might point out that Master Sun's entire reason for putting his many and varied ideas down on paper was best seen by the coda's that appear at it's beginning.

Master Sun pointed out that it was the role of leaders to avoid confrontation by negotiation, compromise, and a settlement of basic differences. In short, if the entire dispute was handled by them in the correct fashion to begin with, none of the rest of his book would apply.

Failing that......

I think we in the West, and the Chinese themselves, forgot the early portions of his work, and concentrated exclusively on the more military aspects.

Master Sun's chapter on sieges is a case in point. A siege was to be conducted only as a last resort. Matters had already gone beyond the point of no return by then....the same case can be made for the body of his work
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04 Oct 15, 06:47
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,124
MarkV is simply cracking [600]
MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600]
I don't think one can say ALL warfare - some or possibly even a great deal can be argued but there are plenty of cases of encounter battles where armies have met and fought head on with no attempt at deception, indeed in the case of some medieval battles by arrangement.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06 Oct 15, 06:52
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,305
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
I don't think one can say ALL warfare - some or possibly even a great deal can be argued but there are plenty of cases of encounter battles where armies have met and fought head on with no attempt at deception, indeed in the case of some medieval battles by arrangement.
In those cases there may have been self-deception--certainly in the case of knights riding down on longbows.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18 May 16, 10:47
GCoyote's Avatar
GCoyote GCoyote is offline
ACG Forums - canis administrationem
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Gary C
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Posts: 19,076
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Does this concept scale?

The Art of War is addressed to rulers and generals. At the political level obfuscation is the norm and some degree of deception must always be allowed for. However as focus moves down the scale from national and strategic to personal and technical does deception become less practical less feasible or both?

A man-o-war approaches an enemy ship in contested waters. Only one or two obvious ploys come to mind. Seamanship and marksmanship would appear to be far more important than deception at this level.
__________________
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

Questions about our site? See the FAQ.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18 May 16, 11:30
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 21,076
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I would say that all properly conducted military campaigns are based upon deception.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 21 May 16, 15:25
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 68,808
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
I would have to say not. There are countless cases of military actions planned and executed with no deceptive measures employed at all.

"Jones, take your squad and take out that bunker"! "Major! Assault and take that town!"

Enemy knows you have to attack it - you know and you do it.

Deception is useful where it's advantageous, but that's not always the case.

The Romans, as an example, never made much of an effort to deceive anyone they were attacking. They actually wanted their enemies to see the might of Rome massing for the attack against them.
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 24 May 16, 22:13
The Exorcist's Avatar
The Exorcist The Exorcist is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 27,517
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I would say that all properly conducted military campaigns are based upon deception.
Yes, and no.
Almost everyone wants to be remembered as the guy that out-witted your enemy. There are exceptions, such as the afore-mentioned Knightly chowder-heads who had a well-deserved reputation for deserving to be extinct.

The appellation "Fox", being a Desert or the Swamp-dwelling variety, is high praise indeed for a General.

Now, about the article itself.... if anyone cares-
Quote:
"Common sense" or "universal opinion" has little to do with Islam's notions of right and wrong. Only what Allah (through the Quran) and his prophet Muhammad (through the Hadith) have to say about any given issue matters; and how Islam's greatest theologians and jurists collectively known as the ulema, literally, "they who know" have articulated it.

According to sharia, in certain situations, deception also known as 'taqiyya', based on Quranic terminology, is not only permitted but sometimes obligatory. For instance, contrary to early Christian history, Muslims who must choose between either recanting Islam or being put to death are not only permitted to lie by pretending to have apostatised, but many jurists have decreed that, according to Quran 4:29, Muslims are obligated to lie in such instances.
So, what you start of with is a foundation based on deceiving anyone that is not of the faith, a cultural basis from which to work from.

Quote:
According to the authoritative Arabic text, Al-Taqiyya Fi Al-Islam: "Taqiyya [deception] is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it. We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream...Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era."

The primary Quranic verse sanctioning deception with respect to non-Muslims states: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions." (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)
There it is in black & white and in the words of their own Holy Book.
Quote:
As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's companions. Abu Darda said: "Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Al-Hassan said: "Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity]."

Other prominent ulema, such as al- Qurtubi , al-Razi, and al-Arabi have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. Muslims can behave like infidels from bowing down and worshipping idols and crosses to even exposing fellow Muslims' "weak spots" to the infidel enemy anything short of actually killing a fellow Muslim.
However, they have managed to have many bloody wars among themselves, and hopefully they will continue to do so.

Now, about the specific attachment to Deceit-

Quote:
During the Battle of the Trench (627 AD), which pitted Muhammad and his followers against several non-Muslim tribes collectively known as "the Confederates", a Confederate called Naim bin Masud went to the Muslim camp and converted to Islam. When Muhammad discovered the Confederates were unaware of Masud's conversion, he counseled him to return and try somehow to get his tribesmen to abandon the siege. "For war is deceit," Muhammad assured him.

Masud returned to the Confederates without their knowledge that he had switched sides and began giving his former kin and allies bad advice. He also went to great lengths to instigate quarrels between the various tribes until, thoroughly distrusting each other, they disbanded and lifted the siege. According to this account, deceit saved Islam during its embryonic stage (see Al-Taqiyya Fi Al-Islam; also, Ibn Ishaq's Sira, the earliest biography of Muhammad).
Muslims have also been allowed to lie about anything in order to carry out assassinations.

Now, we outsiders agree that trickery in war is normal, yet we don't believe that War should be a permanent state of life.

Quote:
However, according to all four recognised schools of Sunni jurisprudence, war against the infidel goes on in perpetuity, until "all chaos ceases, and all religion belongs to Allah" (Quran 8:39). According to the definitive Encyclopaedia of Islam (Brill Online edition): "The duty of the jihad exists as long as the universal domination of Islam has not been attained. Peace with non-Muslim nations is, therefore, a provisional state of affairs only; the chance of circumstances alone can justify it temporarily.
So, yeah, that's trouble.
Quote:
This might be what former PLO leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Yasser Arafat meant when, after negotiating a peace treaty criticised by his opponents as conceding too much to Israel, he said in a mosque: "I see this agreement as being no more than the agreement signed between our Prophet Muhammad and the Quraish in Mecca."

And lastly--


Exposing a doctrine

Quote:
All of the above is an exposition on doctrine and its various manifestations, not an assertion on the actual practices of the average Muslim. The deciding question is how literally any given Muslim follows sharia and its worldview.
So, there you have it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by TactiKill J. View Post
...
If your argument is that the government doesn't spy on its own citizens then you're completely oblivious to reality.
"We have reached the stage where satire is prophecy"
-Theodore Dalrymple
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 26 May 16, 11:01
mconrad's Avatar
mconrad mconrad is offline
Sergeant Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 343
mconrad is on the path to success [1-99] mconrad is on the path to success [1-99] mconrad is on the path to success [1-99] mconrad is on the path to success [1-99] mconrad is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I would say that all properly conducted military campaigns are based upon deception.

"No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:36.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.