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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #16  
Old 19 Aug 15, 12:11
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Early in its life, the USSR tried it, no money that is. Found out it was a necessary lubricant for an economy.
They tried a lot of things that didn't work - abolishing all ranks in the army for example - that didn't last very long either
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  #17  
Old 21 Aug 15, 17:31
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What? You mean in a communist state there are no taxes?
Since in a Communist society there is no state, there is at least no state taxes.
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  #18  
Old 21 Aug 15, 17:39
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Originally Posted by Bo Archer View Post
Redzen

I concur with your sayings on Orwell.

I must opposed to the rest and here is why:

The political spectrum must remain linear as historically done. I ....
If so we're all far leftist. Let's take the state as criterion. Set a value of 0 for Anarchism and 100 for historical Socialism. Since both are part of far left anyone with a value set between 0 and 100 is himself a far leftist.

Acheron,

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The political spectrum is usually depicted as a semi-circle, with the far-right and left on the level edges. I would propose that for totalitarian movements, the semi-circle is extended to a full circle, with national-socialism and stalinism at the very bottom (appropriately) touching each other, like on the top the social-liberal and market-liberal do.
Would rather set Anarchims as point of jonction between the no economic power / no state power far left Anarchism with full economic power / no state power of Anarcho Capitalism (Murray Rothbard, David Friedman).
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  #19  
Old 21 Aug 15, 17:48
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Some of the early proposers of communism even thought there would be no money. Of course some communist regimes have indeed reached a point were there is no money but not in the way the idealists meant!


Good one.
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  #20  
Old 22 Aug 15, 11:15
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Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
The political spectrum is usually depicted as a semi-circle, with the far-right and left on the level edges. I would propose that for totalitarian movements, the semi-circle is extended to a full circle, with national-socialism and stalinism at the very bottom (appropriately) touching each other, like on the top the social-liberal and market-liberal do.
That's how I was taught as part of my first degree back when Fidel was a new kid on the international block, Tito was still going strong, Khrushchev was still banging desks with his shoe and Franco was in Madrid.
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Old 23 Aug 15, 03:11
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Some of the early proposers of communism even thought there would be no money. Of course some communist regimes have indeed reached a point were there is no money but not in the way the idealists meant!
Wasn't it usually so that everybody had quite some money but nothing to spend it on? I think the saying was "In communism, your wallet is full but the shops are empty. In capitalism, the shops are full but your wallet it empty."
Of course, it is possible to fill your own wallet in contrast to someone else's shop.
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Old 23 Aug 15, 09:43
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According to David Woodruff, 'Money Unmade: Barter and the Fate of Russian Capitalism' during the period of 'War Communism' the new Bolshevik state collected no taxes all state expenditure being paid for by printing more roubles. The idea was that hyperinflation would cause money to 'evaporate' and vanish from use
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  #23  
Old 18 Sep 15, 22:57
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Left, right, no matter how pure the ideology, it will always be tainted by the human mind. Therein lies the problem. In analyzing a totalitarian regime you look at the leader who runs it and how he manipulates the ideology to achieve his goals. Even despots have to make sense to the people sometimes.
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  #24  
Old 19 Sep 15, 00:45
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Originally Posted by CVAsailor View Post
Left, right, no matter how pure the ideology, it will always be tainted by the human mind. Therein lies the problem. ...
I strongly disagree.
It is flawed ideology that taints the mind, not the other way around.
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  #25  
Old 19 Sep 15, 04:30
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I strongly disagree.
It is flawed ideology that taints the mind, not the other way around.
It's a meaningless distinction, ideologies spring from the mind (they don't just appear deus ex machina) - you cannot separate one from the other - ideology can warp thinking and human idiosyncrasies will create or change ideologies. The term flawed ideology implies that one can have a perfect ideology - this is foolish there is no such thing. Ideologies are not static they change and evolve over time. Some are warped from the start and get worse, some are benign at first and degenerate, some fit the situation when where they were created and become increasingly inappropriate. History suggests that there is an entropic process - things run down and get worse over time and have to be renewed or replaced.
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  #26  
Old 20 Sep 15, 02:47
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Forgive me butting in....

The word 'communism' seems to be bandied about a little too freely.

'Communism' as such, does not, and has never, existed. 'Communism' is a utopian ideal. It's a 'perfect state' with no internal or external war permitted (all other countries, presumably, have the same ideology). This 'perfection of government' has no poverty, class distinction, or predjudice based on race, family or background, (but not religon, this having been discarded in an atheist world)..... (Hurrah to that alone!)

"Communism" then, is something that "socialists" aspire to, work toward, and daydream about as they go about the business of working to change the current regime into the 'ideal'.

It's a small point, but it was the subject of the very first lecture on socialism I revceived, and in High School at that!




Post 11 questioned why clergyman were killed in numbers by Russian troops serving in Spain. I can only say that, not only were they following their atheist ideology, the Spanish clergy had not exactly endeared themselves to the peasant class they were supposed to be 'saving' from themselves.

It may have been an attempt to curry support with this oppressed mass of people that saw the clergy executed. The clergyman and their entrenched attitudes to this perpetually poor and socially un-mobile class of people can and should be seen as a major reason why the Spanish Civil War came into being at all.

My source for that? I'm working through Arturo Barea's trilogy "Forging A Rebel", a combination of three works by that author, a work that was translated into English, and when the original manuscript was lost, had to be retranslated back into Spanish.

So far, I'm at the point in the first book, where Arturo is taken in by Jesuits as a 'young gentleman' student, lifted from poverty by the Jesuits, (ostensibly for his own advancement), but in reality to provide the Jesuits with a 'pet' peasant student they can clothe and feed, that will attract other students from rich families that the Jesuit Order might be able to charge a hefty fee for the education of aristocratic progeny.

Arturo's dislike of the way in which his village people are continually manipulated and exploited by their local and authoritive priests and clergyman teachers, leaves you wondering excatly why it was that a Civil War did not break out many years previous!

The poor of his community are also fed great stories of resistance to Napolean by ordinary people during the Peninsula War, something that backfires later.

It's a seminal work, and it's told entirely without any consideration for reputation of the people involved. A straight talking trilogy, I would certainly recommend it so far to the person seeking to understand a little more about the Civil War, and the rise of a Fascist dictatorship that was one of the longest running government regimes in Europe.

Sorry to interrupt...please continue your debate...
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  #27  
Old 21 Sep 15, 12:47
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Forgive me butting in....

The word 'communism' seems to be bandied about a little too freely.

'Communism' as such, does not, and has never, existed. 'Communism' is a utopian ideal. It's a 'perfect state' with no internal or external war permitted (all other countries, presumably, have the same ideology). This 'perfection of government' has no poverty, class distinction, or predjudice based on race, family or background, (but not religon, this having been discarded in an atheist world)..... (Hurrah to that alone!)

"Communism" then, is something that "socialists" aspire to, work toward, and daydream about as they go about the business of working to change the current regime into the 'ideal'.

It's a small point, but it was the subject of the very first lecture on socialism I revceived, and in High School at that!
Indeed, that is all very good in school and in any other theoreticians' environment.

Meanwhile, down there in Spain, there was a Communist party, the PCE, and a Socialist party, the PSOE. They were allied but not without friction, especially outside of Catalonia (where they joined in the PSUC, but then the "friction" there was with the POUM, as you'll remember).
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Old 21 Sep 15, 17:55
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All of which goes to prove that their deviation from the norm for their own ends should have been a signal to all concerned that they were not what they seemed to be.

Socialist meddling in the affairs of the legitimate Spanish Government had only one cost, borne by THE PEOPLE.

Statements, such as your own, seem to indictae that the ideal was very far removed from that which was practiced. Another indicator of the emptiness of help received.

So what if I hate the art world for doing nothing for the Spanish people?

The Soviet Union was self serving in their intervention as well.

The only people to suffer, were the poor, the very class that these quick talking intellectuals and hard bitten politicals, should have remembered...

As should you...
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Old 21 Sep 15, 18:05
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debates about ideology and it's apparent effect on the course of the war, are meaningless.

They had no effect on lifting the people from the yoke of their Fascist overlords.

It seems that, had the legitimate government acutally won the war, they may have been hijacked by socialism...exchanching one ridiculous ideology for another, one master for another, and one oppressor for another.

If you lived in Spain, with the seat of government in doubt, your clothes in rags, no food in your belly, and the Luftwaffe crunching your town, you might have no time for pointless debates concerning the political scene and it's so called help.

I haven't the patience for it either.

You would, however, expect any outside help to concentrate on the war on the ground, not the political bullshit that pervaded.

The people of spain were sold out there as well.

Christopher
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Old 22 Sep 15, 06:26
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
All of which goes to prove that their deviation from the norm for their own ends should have been a signal to all concerned that they were not what they seemed to be.

Socialist meddling in the affairs of the legitimate Spanish Government had only one cost, borne by THE PEOPLE.

Statements, such as your own, seem to indictae that the ideal was very far removed from that which was practiced. Another indicator of the emptiness of help received.

So what if I hate the art world for doing nothing for the Spanish people?

The Soviet Union was self serving in their intervention as well.

The only people to suffer, were the poor, the very class that these quick talking intellectuals and hard bitten politicals, should have remembered...

As should you...
What was the legitimate Spanish government? It was a generally left-wing coalition seemingly bent on reducing the inequalities within the Spanish state. The emptiness of the help received to the Republican cause had more to do with the British led blockade of aid to the combatants, a blockade which was much more porous for the Falange than for the Republicans. All sides, including the neutrals, didn't give a rat's nono about the people as the emphasis had shifted to fighting. And what could the art world do for the Spanish? Hold a paint-athon to raise money to send food and medicine for people being blockaded by the artists' governments?
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