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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #16  
Old 26 Dec 15, 01:10
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Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
The Flyer I produced 130 lb of thrust with 12 hp & hand carved props, Rutan's Voyager produced 1,400 lb of thrust with 238 hp & Roncz airfoil, CNC machined, aluminum props. Which propulsion system is higher tech & deserves to be emulated for a long distance flight?
The Rutan Voyager.

The Wright Flyer I had a wing loading of 1.4 lbs / sq ft. It could manage 30 mph at most and was susceptible to wind. It's control system was primitive at best. It also has a worse hp / wt ratio and a maximum range, of maybe a few miles at most.

The Voyager wing loads at maximum weight at 26.7 lbs / sq ft. It has a considerably lower drag coefficient. It is designed to fly at 122 mph max on about 110 hp, once at altitude. It's hp / wt ratio is about two thirds that of the Wright Flyer making it more efficient. It carries fuel for about 30,000 miles of flight, possibly more.

So, given everything, the Wright flyer is barely capable of flying to the grocery store while the Rutan Voyager can, and has, circumnavigated the planet.
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  #17  
Old 26 Dec 15, 12:26
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Which is why I specified emulating the propulsion system. Hopefully, someday You'll learn to read. First You missed the word pressurized in a brief opening statement & then the words propulsion system in an even shorter post. No wonder You find longer posts so daunting.

Voyager's wing loading is ridiculously low for efficient flying (especially at the low altitude in which it flew), which is why I am using a much higher wing loading & at a much higher altitude (very much less drag & stronger tail winds). Too bad You managed to miss the fact that the expensive & supposedly high tech crap had much lower thrust/hp than the bicycle repair shop guys' plane. The most important cryterion for long distance flight.

Last edited by Dracoco; 26 Dec 15 at 14:53..
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  #18  
Old 26 Dec 15, 14:41
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Rutan did however manage to copy two defects from the Flyer I. 1) His Voyager had an equally small canard in proportion to the huge wings and placed too close to the wings, so it was just as dangerously unstable. 2) His Global Flyer did not have flaps either, despite being built a century later!
Moreover Rutan managed to make a huge mistake twice, which the bicycle repairmen would never have made: both Voyager & Global Flyer had a negative attitude while they taxied, so Voyager scraped & damaged her wingtips & lost her winglets & nearly ran out of runway.

Last edited by Dracoco; 26 Dec 15 at 14:49..
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  #19  
Old 29 Dec 15, 01:11
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Have you built a flyer and navigated the globe? If not then I doubt you have anything to add to the team that not only planned it, but DID it.
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  #20  
Old 29 Dec 15, 14:18
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I am not adding, I'm removing, The huge team wasted years & millions of dollars from personal donations building the most dangerous, fragile, expensive, complicated piece of crap to fly in the most asenine way around the world.
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Old 29 Dec 15, 14:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I am not adding, I'm removing, The huge team wasted years & millions of dollars from personal donations building the most dangerous, fragile, expensive, complicated piece of crap to fly in the most asenine way around the world.
Whatever... But, it did fly around the world. The Wright Flyer couldn't make it two city blocks in the air...
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  #22  
Old 29 Dec 15, 16:26
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& yet the Flyer I was built in a hurry with pennies & their hands by guys who understood the vital importance of propulsive efficiency, not by a smartass who wasted tons of fuel to produce a lot of hp, only to waste much of the power in blade tip turbulence, cooling drag, low altitude drag & carrying the heavy engnes & fuel.
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  #23  
Old 29 Dec 15, 18:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
& yet the Flyer I was built in a hurry with pennies & their hands by guys who understood the vital importance of propulsive efficiency, not by a smartass who wasted tons of fuel to produce a lot of hp, only to waste much of the power in blade tip turbulence, cooling drag, low altitude drag & carrying the heavy engnes & fuel.
Yea... They only spent two and half years designing it and what for the time was a small fortune building it (about $27,000 in today's money). That doesn't include their cost of research and development. With that it's closer to about $95,000.
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  #24  
Old 29 Dec 15, 19:29
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So not only were they brilliant plane designers, they were also finacial geniuses? for according to You they produced in a few years a lot more money than they were worth & all from a bicycle repair shop. They must have done some pimping or bankrobbing to come up with the cash.

Actually, they spent incredibly little money & time. They even produced their own engine with the help of an old machinist who had never made an engine. In contrast Rutan relied on Teledyne to provide him with an unprecedently efficient plane engine, so he could be waste much of the power in the prop & cooling drag.

The bicycle repairmen used their own money, while the plane builder relied on myriad small donation & volunteers.
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  #25  
Old 29 Dec 15, 20:55
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Draco have you even done the research to find out why they made the choices they made? I am betting that they had good reasons.
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  #26  
Old 29 Dec 15, 21:48
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You tell me the reason for using an expensive propulsion system which produces a lot fewer lb of thrust per hp in 1986 than a hand made one in 1903.

You tell me the reason for designing a plane in which 20% of the drag comes from engine fins & radiator.

You tell me the reason for making a plane so unstable when fully loaded that Dick Rutan had to fly it for 2 days straight, because he knew that Jeana just did not have the experience to fly it until much of the fuel was burnt & the plane became more stable.

You tell me the reason to fly at 11,000 feet in incredibly bad weather for 9 days with a moderate tail wind, when they could have easily pressurized the plane, flown at 36,000 ft with 100 mph tail winds in less than half the time.

You tell me the reason for using nearly the same hp and speed as the Spirit of St. Louis 59 years before.

You tell me the reason for a TO run with a negative attitude so the wingtips scratch the runway & are damaged.

You tell me the reason for not using wingtip tanks to prevent the huge deflection of the fully loaded wing.

The irony is that propulsive power is an order of magnitude more important for a world flight than for the few hundred feet the Flier I covered in its longest flight.
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  #27  
Old 29 Dec 15, 22:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
You tell me the reason for using an expensive propulsion system which produces a lot fewer lb of thrust per hp in 1986 than a hand made one in 1903.
This is patently false. The Wright engine of 1903 weighed 180 lbs. and produced 12 hp (16 cold). Or, in operation it produced 1 hp for every 15 pounds of engine.

The Continental engines on the Voyager weighed 170 lbs. producing 100 hp and 255 lbs. producing 125 hp respectively. That is, the cruise engine for the flight produced 1 hp for every 1.7 lbs. of engine and the take off assist engine produced 1 hp for every 1.125 lbs. of engine. That means these engines are between 9 and 13 times as efficient for their weight as the Wright engine was. That is a reasonable thing given nearly a century of improvement in engine design.
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  #28  
Old 29 Dec 15, 22:31
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I never mentioned engine weight- I said that it produced more lb of thrust per hp. Please learn what lb of thrust mean, before You argue.

In 1986 anybody could have made an efficient 12 hp engine which weighed less than 30 lb with supercharger (a tiny fraction of whose compressed air used to pressurize the plane.

hp/engine weight is not that important when most of the plane's weight is fuel.
I would much rather have a slightly heavier engine but use the hp it produces more efficiently, so that I need less fuel to complete the flight.
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  #29  
Old 29 Dec 15, 22:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracoco View Post
I never mentioned engine weight- I said that it produced more lb of thrust per hp. Please learn what lb of thrust mean, before You argue.

In 1986 anybody could have made an efficient 12 hp engine which weighed less than 30 lb with supercharger (a tiny fraction of whose compressed air used to pressurize the plane.
Source. I'm not buying this for a New York second. Show a verifiable source or sources that show this.
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  #30  
Old 29 Dec 15, 22:41
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You can find the fact that the Flyer I produced 130 lb of thrust readily, You can read that Voyager produced 1,400 lb of thrust in Dick Rutan's & Jeana Yeager's book Voyager. They built & flew the plane designed by Burt Rutan.

You can also read in that book that despite having flown the plane with a partial fuel load for months before they filled her up for the flight, they discovered after taking off that the plane had twice the calculated rate of climb (300 fpm instead of 150), which gives You an idea about the calculations.
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