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  #46  
Old 13 Jul 15, 09:54
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The P-38 was superior to the Zero and Ki-43 and did quite well in the Pacific. In the ETO she did poorly only because she was used the wrong way. She was not intended to dog fight (just like the Whirlwind, Wildcat or P-40 were not) she was intended for boom and zoom. The Bf 109 could simply not catch up with her in speed or rate of climb and she had a formidable armament.

Tactics are just as important as performance. The Finns did wonders with the maligned Buffalo, the Soviets with the P-39 (declared useless by western pilots) and Chenault did quite well with the same Tomahawk, which performed poorly elsewhere in the first 2 months of the war as a fighter.

The Whirlwind would have done extremely well in the BoB with Pegasus engines and adequate tactics. My Bf 110 is even better.
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  #47  
Old 13 Jul 15, 18:15
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According to this page,
http://www.aviation-history.com/mess...itt/bf110.html

There were close to 500 Bf 110 in service by the end of 1939 (there having been very few losses in Poland). That is an impressive number for such expensive figters. Had these been the suggested, easier to produce, lighter, single seat version, Germany would have had an enormous advantage over France, Britain and the Med and then during Barbarossa. Especially since probably 11 of the cheaper planes could be produced for every OTL Bf 110, making that number about 550 fighters.

Perhaps the biggest waste resulting from the Turkey project was the fact that the best fighter pilots were reserved for it and lost in large numbers (along with other crewmen) in the unmaneuverable, heavy plane with lousy acceleration and rate of climb.
Those pilots would have lasted longer and been far more productive in the nimbler, faster plane.

It is surprising that Willie Messerschmitt used slats for the Bf 109 but not for the Bf 110, designed by him a year later.
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  #48  
Old 14 Jul 15, 04:57
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The P-38 was superior to the Zero and Ki-43 and did quite well in the Pacific. In the ETO she did poorly only because she was used the wrong way. She was not intended to dog fight (just like the Whirlwind, Wildcat or P-40 were not) she was intended for boom and zoom. The Bf 109 could simply not catch up with her in speed or rate of climb and she had a formidable armament.

Tactics are just as important as performance. The Finns did wonders with the maligned Buffalo, the Soviets with the P-39 (declared useless by western pilots) and Chenault did quite well with the same Tomahawk, which performed poorly elsewhere in the first 2 months of the war as a fighter.

The Whirlwind would have done extremely well in the BoB with Pegasus engines and adequate tactics. My Bf 110 is even better.
The claim that boom and zoom tactics were the predetermined and intended method of use for heavier US fighters against more nimble enemy fighters is contentious.
The people who built the P38 , Wildcat and the Tomahawk intended them to be fighters,when they were found to be incapable of mixing it in a knife fight with their opposite numbers their pilots rapidly adapted and used the only thing which they had in their favour; Weight and gravity,just like all good pilots would.

This is not an advantage of the heavier planes it is simply a case of using the aircraft to its unintended strengths.

Your BF110 would have been restricted to boom and zoom the same as all other heavy fighters.
If attacked from above they would be sitters because they just cannot accelerate quickly enough nor turn into a diving aircraft fast enough.
The Mosquito is widely regarded as the best all round ac of WW2 but even they avoided Luftwaffe day fighters when possible.

Again,your twin 110 is not needed,what was needed was 109s plumbed for drop tanks.
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  #49  
Old 14 Jul 15, 10:31
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My Bf 110 has much higher acceleration and rate of climb than the OTL Bf 110, because she has the same thrust but she is much lighter and has much less drag. She also has higher acceleration and rate of climb than a Spitfire or Hurricane. If attacked from above she needs only move sideways (skidding, crabbing or whatever You call it) to avoid the fire and then dive behind tha attacker or dive to outrun her attacker and then climb to dive again behind the attacker. That is what boom and zoom entails.

Of course tactics have to be developed to obtain the maximum from each plane. A Gladiator, Hurricane, Spitfire, Defiant or Whirlwind would each use completely different tactics against a Bf 109 and then again a different set against each type of bomber. And even then Marseille would use completely different tactics for a given plane than Galland would, even if both were flying a Bf 109.

A head on attack with the longer range, more destructive 20 mm cannon against a Spitfire or Hurricane with .303 MGs also provides an advantage for my plane in the BoB or against a Gladiator with 2 MGs in Iraq.

The fact is that having the fastest and fastest climbing and most survivable fighter and which is cheaper than an OTL Bf 110 represents a huge advantage, of course only with the proper tactics.

The higher wingloading than the OTL Bf 110 at high speed (slats retracted after a shallow dive) also results in a more stable firing platform when strafing RAF bases.

Last edited by Draco; 14 Jul 15 at 10:51..
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  #50  
Old 14 Jul 15, 11:04
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2 modifications which would render the Bf 110 faster and more maneuverable are
1) Placing the engines on the fuselage, like the Do 335 or Voyager, even if the pilots visibility is poorer.

2) Using equal tandem wings and no horizontal stabilizer. this reduces wingspan considerably, improving rate of roll and it reduces visibility to other planes and Radar print.
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Old 14 Jul 15, 11:11
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It is interesting that the otherwise excelletn Do 335 had the same huge wing area of the OTL Bf 110 turkey, but the former had much more powerful engines.

The pusher puller, lighter, tandem Bf 110 uses much less fuel than the Do 335 and makes an excellent, less expensive, easier to produce fighter.
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  #52  
Old 14 Jul 15, 16:47
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Regardless of any debate about this alternative design's qualities, in the grand scheme of things it would make exactly zero difference.

I could pick any of dozens of Japanese, German, US, British, or other nation's prototype aircraft and make the same argument. Any one of them would have negligible effect on the outcome of the war.
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  #53  
Old 14 Jul 15, 19:31
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500 expensive Bf 110 in late 1939 represent a huge investment in money, labor and pilots at a critical time. The fact that the plane turned out to be a lousy fighter allowed the few hundred Hurricanes to put up a decent defense of Dunkirk and Britain.

According to the wiki entry on the C.714, just the Polish pilots flying lousy Caudrons with 500 hp engines from Mions and a few eeks after their first flight in them managed to shoot down an incredible 5 expensive Bf 110 and acquire invaluable experience doing so. Nothing shows better how useless and vulnerable the turkey was. The much faster single seat Bf 110 would probably have survived and shot down a few Polish pilots.

A much better fighter would have made a big difference in France (fewer Hurricanes returning to and fewer Polish and Czech pilots arriving in Britain), Dunkirk a major turnng point and then over Britain, the Med, Iraq, Africa and Barbarossa.

The Germans were very unpleasantly surprised when they finally faced hundreds of modern fighters over Dunkirk and realized that their best hope was useless.

Had the Hurricanes encountered an even better fighter than the Bf 109 over Dunkirk, they would have been the unpleasantly surprised ones.

Given the crucial role of aviation, there is a world of difference between having 500 expensive turkeys or 500 excellent fighters early in the war.

Most importantly, instead of hundreds of the best fighter pilots being wasted in the W in turkeys after a few minutes or hours in combat. These men would have gained invaluable experience and become super aces faster than their peers in the less survivable, slower Bf 109, which could fight only for a few minutes over Britain.

For example, given the high rate of loss, most of the Bf 110 pilots arriving in Iraq, Sicily, Crete, N Africa probably had acquired little or no combat experience against fighters over Britain. With a much better plane, several Bf 110 aces from Britain would have participated in these campaigns where there were not even Spitfires in 1940-41. Making a huge difference.
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  #54  
Old 14 Jul 15, 20:15
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Just on 15 May, 1940 9 Bf 110 were lost, 60 invading Holland, Belgium and France. 223 were lost during the BoB for no territorial gains at all

When one considers the ridiculous production at the time, the high cost of the plane (the resources it used for its production) and the loss of many invaluable pilots while causing few casualties. That was truly a major blow to the LW, from which it bever recovered.
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  #55  
Old 14 Jul 15, 21:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
A better Bf 110 in 1939
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
2 modifications which would render the Bf 110 faster and more maneuverable are
1) Placing the engines on the fuselage, like the Do 335 ....
So your proposal to have a better 110 in 1939 would have involved using a design that the Germans didn't manage to perfect and get into production through to the end of the war (i.e. Do 335)?
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  #56  
Old 14 Jul 15, 23:32
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The OP version is more than adequate for 1939-41, then the pusher-puller version can enter the game.

Dornier used multiple pusher-puller engines for the huge D0-X in 1930. Notice the 4 blade props for the small engines.

The Siemmens-Schukert DDr.I crashed on the first flight in 1917, but with the advances in avaation it was no problem for Dornier, Messerschmidt, etc, to make a pusher-puller fighter in 1939.

The Do-335 project was spoiled, delayed and sidelined because of the idea of making into a fast bomber (like the Me 252, also delayed) and fuel availability for its powerful engines. With the Bf 110 engines and a 280 ft2 wing its a cheaper and more fuel efficient proposition than the Do 335.
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  #57  
Old 15 Jul 15, 04:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
My Bf 110 has much higher acceleration and rate of climb than the OTL Bf 110, because she has the same thrust but she is much lighter and has much less drag. She also has higher acceleration and rate of climb than a Spitfire or Hurricane. If attacked from above she needs only move sideways (skidding, crabbing or whatever You call it) to avoid the fire and then dive behind tha attacker or dive to outrun her attacker and then climb to dive again behind the attacker. That is what boom and zoom entails.

Of course tactics have to be developed to obtain the maximum from each plane. A Gladiator, Hurricane, Spitfire, Defiant or Whirlwind would each use completely different tactics against a Bf 109 and then again a different set against each type of bomber. And even then Marseille would use completely different tactics for a given plane than Galland would, even if both were flying a Bf 109.

A head on attack with the longer range, more destructive 20 mm cannon against a Spitfire or Hurricane with .303 MGs also provides an advantage for my plane in the BoB or against a Gladiator with 2 MGs in Iraq.

The fact is that having the fastest and fastest climbing and most survivable fighter and which is cheaper than an OTL Bf 110 represents a huge advantage, of course only with the proper tactics.

The higher wingloading than the OTL Bf 110 at high speed (slats retracted after a shallow dive) also results in a more stable firing platform when strafing RAF bases.
Are you going to be the one to suggest to Luftwaffe fighter pilots that this new wunderwaffe will be able to escape ANY fighter diving on it by diving in front of it?
You would have been laughed right out of the Staffel ready room door then given a BF110 Draco ,invited to circle over Kent at 20 000 ft and prove it.

The only way a fighter pilot can hope to stay on this mortal coil in such circumstances is to attempt to pull his own wings off in a rivet popping turn into the ea at exactly the right moment.
Even then he stays at a disadvantage because his enemy having lost (hopefully) his firing solution will pull up for another go at your now even slower ac.

Repeat until you find a friendly cloud,he is interrupted,he goes away or you die,whichever comes first.

Rule number one in self preservation for fighter pilots:

Never,ever,repeat EVER dive away from an ea descending in a dive on you.
It already has energy developed in his dive,even a slower ac will catch you before you have accumulated enough of the same energy to make your escape.

That you are seemingly unaware of this very basic tenet shows me you just do not grasp the intracacies of WW2 era fighter v fighter combat.

How does your wunderwaffe overcome the drag imposed by the second engine and the larger wing?

Will you use the as yet unperfected Zauberstab method?

And why pray tell,would an RAF pilot engage obligingly in a head on attack with any fighter ac never mind an aircraft as sooper dooper as yours?

Some of the best aviation minds of all time tried and failed to improve the 110,are you saying that you could have outdone them?

Why not just introduce the BF109 E7 a little bit earlier?
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  #58  
Old 15 Jul 15, 04:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It is interesting that the otherwise excelletn Do 335 had the same huge wing area of the OTL Bf 110 turkey, but the former had much more powerful engines.

The pusher puller, lighter, tandem Bf 110 uses much less fuel than the Do 335 and makes an excellent, less expensive, easier to produce fighter.
As long as you weren't too fussy about where you wanted to go.

The Do 335 was prone to both snaking and porpoising, while most aircraft achieve only one of these. Impressive, but pretty useless for combat.
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Old 15 Jul 15, 07:58
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... With the Bf 110 engines and a 280 ft2 wing its a cheaper and more fuel efficient proposition than the Do 335.
So you're going to use the same engines the 110 had historically, except you're going to somehow attach them to the fuselage. Then you're going to cut the wing area down, yet you somehow expect it to increase the 110's maneuverability and speed. I think you're going to have to use some of that captured advanced alien technology the Nazis had captured in order make make this work.
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Old 15 Jul 15, 10:01
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
Are you going to be the one to suggest to Luftwaffe fighter pilots that this new wunderwaffe will be able to escape ANY fighter diving on it by diving in front of it?
You would have been laughed right out of the Staffel ready room door then given a BF110 Draco ,invited to circle over Kent at 20 000 ft and prove it.

The only way a fighter pilot can hope to stay on this mortal coil in such circumstances is to attempt to pull his own wings off in a rivet popping turn into the ea at exactly the right moment.
Even then he stays at a disadvantage because his enemy having lost (hopefully) his firing solution will pull up for another go at your now even slower ac.

Repeat until you find a friendly cloud,he is interrupted,he goes away or you die,whichever comes first.

Rule number one in self preservation for fighter pilots:

Never,ever,repeat EVER dive away from an ea descending in a dive on you.
It already has energy developed in his dive,even a slower ac will catch you before you have accumulated enough of the same energy to make your escape.

That you are seemingly unaware of this very basic tenet shows me you just do not grasp the intracacies of WW2 era fighter v fighter combat.

How does your wunderwaffe overcome the drag imposed by the second engine and the larger wing?

Will you use the as yet unperfected Zauberstab method?

And why pray tell,would an RAF pilot engage obligingly in a head on attack with any fighter ac never mind an aircraft as sooper dooper as yours?

Some of the best aviation minds of all time tried and failed to improve the 110,are you saying that you could have outdone them?

Why not just introduce the BF109 E7 a little bit earlier?
Regarding the BoB, The plane is not designed for circling over Kent. It is designed to attack a single RAF base with 60 planes and the 2 closest bases attacked at a time (120 Bf 110s and 60 Bf 109s in an operation). 12 Bf 110s approach close to the deck and 48 approach the base at high altitude. There is little time for Radar, TO and climb so some planes are destroyed on the ground by fragmentation bombs and strafing and the rest are attacked head on while they climb, any survivors are attacked after a second climb and dive. The few survivors encounter a wave of 30 Bf 109. While RAF fighters are being taken care of, the Stukas and twin engine bombers attack the base and Radar station.

As I explained, the Bf 109 is slower (she cannot outfly a SPitfire when she runs out of ammo, is short on fuel or faces multiple planes), climbs more slowly (providing more time for enemy planes to climb when Radar detects her), is less survivable (more pilots and planes lost over enemy territory if the single engine, prop or cooling system fails or if a small part of the tiny wing or horizontal stabilizer is lost), has a shorter range (both planes with or w/o tanks) and most importantly, the best pilots were chosen for the Bf 110 and lost in droves.

There is much more thrust than in the Bf 109 and without torque (as the props counter rotate). The wing is only 62% larger (280 ft2 Vs. 173 ft2), so thrust to drag is better. The weight of the pilot and cannon is the same so thrust/wt is higher. So the twin engine, single seat plane accelerates, flies, dives and climbs much faster and has a longer range.

Last edited by Draco; 15 Jul 15 at 10:26..
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