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  #31  
Old 12 Jul 15, 16:54
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Originally Posted by JAG View Post
You are confusing the Zerstorer and Schnellbomber competitions, they may have started as one, but when Me presented the Bf-110 without the required bomb bay the specification was split in two, the fast bomber and the Zerstorer tailored for the Bf-110. The 110's competitors were the Fw-57 and the Hs-124, with Messer and Henschel presenting new models for the Schnellbomber based on the designs created for the first and now defunct multirole program, the Bf-162 and Hs-127.





Just remember that the BF-110 was a three-seater, a left over from its "light bomber" origins that would allow it to carry a radar operator later in the war.

The Fw-187 btw didnt need a rear gunner, it was an idiotic leftover requirement by Udet/Goring from the original bomber specs that would keep on crapping German designs all the way to the Me-410.
You're preaching to the choir, but from the wrong bible.

The Bf 110 was a two-seater, until the night-fighter version required a third seat for the radar operator (it was a vindication of the large wing that the radar set and third crew-member did little to the aircraft's speed - it was the drag of the ariel array that slowed it - or handling). The Zerstorer specification was practically written around the Bf 110 in the first place. It DID evolve from a Kampfzerstorer (Fighter-Bomber) concept, but Messerschmitt's decision not to include a bomb-bay and reduce the crew to two was borne out by the efforts of Focke-Wulf and Henschel, as both aircraft were totally inadequate.

The Schnellbomber concept was issued after the RLM had seen the Ju 88. Despite the fact that the Bf 162 didn't actually enter service, the RAF claimed to have shot down several Messershmitt, "Jaguars," during the BoB.

The Hs 127 was a better aircraft than the Hs 124, but neither was anything to write home about.

Opinion is sharply divided on the carriage of rear guns - everybody used them, and front-line experience had aircraft as diverse as the Fairey Fulmar, Bristol Beaufighter and Ilyushin Il-2 Sturmovik, all fitted with them - so the madness was neither exclusively German, nor entirely unfounded.
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Old 12 Jul 15, 18:24
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You're preaching to the choir, but from the wrong bible.

The Bf 110 was a two-seater, until the night-fighter version required a third seat for the radar operator (it was a vindication of the large wing that the radar set and third crew-member did little to the aircraft's speed - it was the drag of the ariel array that slowed it - or handling). The Zerstorer specification was practically written around the Bf 110 in the first place. It DID evolve from a Kampfzerstorer (Fighter-Bomber) concept, but Messerschmitt's decision not to include a bomb-bay and reduce the crew to two was borne out by the efforts of Focke-Wulf and Henschel, as both aircraft were totally inadequate.
The aircraft was conceived as a three seater, the third occupant was simply not carried when accepted as Zerstorer, but the space for him (bombardier IIRC) was there as a left over from the original project. Hence the capability to carry radar and its operator.

They may have reduced the crew to two by not having someone fill the seat... but didnt modify the aircraft that thus remained a three-seater. Might have gone as far as removing the seat, but that would be it.

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The Schnellbomber concept was issued after the RLM had seen the Ju 88. Despite the fact that the Bf 162 didn't actually enter service, the RAF claimed to have shot down several Messershmitt, "Jaguars," during the BoB.
They still needed the bomber part of the Kampfzerstorer filled, so Milch came up with the Schnellbomber idea and Junkers went to tinker with its Ju-85 and 88 Kampfzerstorer ideas (never submitted IIRC) and ended up beating the competition and having the specs changed to fit, but the original requirement preceded the Ju-88 as we know it.

Quote:
The Hs 127 was a better aircraft than the Hs 124, but neither was anything to write home about.

Opinion is sharply divided on the carriage of rear guns - everybody used them, and front-line experience had aircraft as diverse as the Fairey Fulmar, Bristol Beaufighter and Ilyushin Il-2 Sturmovik, all fitted with them - so the madness was neither exclusively German, nor entirely unfounded.
I dont have an issue with ordnance carrying aircraft having a gunner, my issue is with fighters having them, it just adds weight and makes no sense as the Defiant proved to death. Exception being the night fighter since they were usually bomber conversions and just kept them for the extra pair of eyes, not that they needed them.

The Bf-110 went from Kampfzerstorer to Zerstorer? Fine, just drop the friggin gunner!

Did the Fulmar carry a gunner? Wasnt the guy just a navigator/observer?

Heh, the Fulmar is I think the best parallel, both had its origins in a light bomber/CAS design and were then adapted as a fighter... to rather lackluster results. Although the Bf-110 at least got a gunner out of the deal... but the Fulmar got a redesign to get rid of the space for the third guy and being a carrier plane meant that it usually didnt have to deal with enemy fighters, only less threatening opposition.
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  #33  
Old 12 Jul 15, 18:54
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The Spitfire had a much larger wing area, so its TO and landing speed were lower. It was seldom used from primitive airfields and by inexperienced pilots or as a Jabo, as the Hurricane was (broader undercarriage and larger wing area).

The Bf 109 had the worst combination of a small wing area and a narrow undercarriage and the worst losses to TO and landing accidents. A few squadrons prove nothing at all. The rate of losses to such accidents vary enormously depending on pilot flying hours, runway conditions, plane load (bombs for the Jabo version or fuel tanks, etc,) but the Bf 109 killed more pilots and lost more planes to such accidents than any WW II plane.

It is interesting that the green AVG pilots destroyed dozens of P-40s learning to fly them. Had those been Bf 109 they would probably have been left with 5 or 6 planes and pilots out of 100.

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  #34  
Old 12 Jul 15, 19:00
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Originally Posted by JAG View Post
The aircraft was conceived as a three seater, the third occupant was simply not carried when accepted as Zerstorer, but the space for him (bombardier IIRC) was there as a left over from the original project. Hence the capability to carry radar and its operator.

They may have reduced the crew to two by not having someone fill the seat... but didnt modify the aircraft that thus remained a three-seater. Might have gone as far as removing the seat, but that would be it.



They still needed the bomber part of the Kampfzerstorer filled, so Milch came up with the Schnellbomber idea and Junkers went to tinker with its Ju-85 and 88 Kampfzerstorer ideas (never submitted IIRC) and ended up beating the competition and having the specs changed to fit, but the original requirement preceded the Ju-88 as we know it.



I dont have an issue with ordnance carrying aircraft having a gunner, my issue is with fighters having them, it just adds weight and makes no sense as the Defiant proved to death. Exception being the night fighter since they were usually bomber conversions and just kept them for the extra pair of eyes, not that they needed them.

The Bf-110 went from Kampfzerstorer to Zerstorer? Fine, just drop the friggin gunner!

Did the Fulmar carry a gunner? Wasnt the guy just a navigator/observer?

Heh, the Fulmar is I think the best parallel, both had its origins in a light bomber/CAS design and were then adapted as a fighter... to rather lackluster results. Although the Bf-110 at least got a gunner out of the deal... but the Fulmar got a redesign to get rid of the space for the third guy and being a carrier plane meant that it usually didnt have to deal with enemy fighters, only less threatening opposition.

Many Fulmars were modified in the field to carry a Vickers K on a Scarff ring in the rear cockpit (unofficially) - who's going to know what happens on a carrier at sea ?

The Defiant was another flawed concept, but coupled with the weight and drag penalties of a turret was the lack of forward-firing armament vital to any fighter.

The fault of the Bf 110 was its concept - a heavy fighter using powerful armament to carve a path for the bombers - rather than any intrinsic flaw in the aircraft, which enjoyed a fair degree of success - if overshadowed by the superb Ju 88.
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  #35  
Old 12 Jul 15, 19:04
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It is surprising that the superb Ju 88 and Bf 110 turkey suffered heavier losses in the BoB (mostly to Hurricanes) than the more numerous He 111.
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Old 12 Jul 15, 19:19
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Many Fulmars were modified in the field to carry a Vickers K on a Scarff ring in the rear cockpit (unofficially) - who's going to know what happens on a carrier at sea ?

The Defiant was another flawed concept, but coupled with the weight and drag penalties of a turret was the lack of forward-firing armament vital to any fighter.

The fault of the Bf 110 was its concept - a heavy fighter using powerful armament to carve a path for the bombers - rather than any intrinsic flaw in the aircraft, which enjoyed a fair degree of success - if overshadowed by the superb Ju 88.
Dunno, for me the only way to salvage the thing would have been to turn it into a single seater, there was no reason for it to have a rear gunner as a fighter, much less carry around fuselage space and weight for a third guy!

Its half-assed adaptation into a fighter doomed it, its successes where in the absence of competitive fighter opposition, and in roles other aircraft could fulfill even better. The fact that the LW saw fitting to put guns on a Ju-88 in order to get a long range fighter tells worlds about it.



Do you have a pic of the Fulmar with a MG? IIRC the aircraft had a straight fuselage back...
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  #37  
Old 12 Jul 15, 20:38
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The Bf 109 had the worst combination of a small wing area and a narrow undercarriage and the worst losses to TO and landing accidents. A few squadrons prove nothing at all. The rate of losses to such accidents vary enormously depending on pilot flying hours, runway conditions, plane load (bombs for the Jabo version or fuel tanks, etc,) but the Bf 109 killed more pilots and lost more planes to such accidents than any WW II plane.

It is interesting that the green AVG pilots destroyed dozens of P-40s learning to fly them. Had those been Bf 109 they would probably have been left with 5 or 6 planes and pilots out of 100.
Do you have hard evidence for this?

And No I will not let you go on this until you cough up some real numbers and their source.
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  #38  
Old 12 Jul 15, 20:48
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Do you have hard evidence for this?

And No I will not let you go on this until you cough up some real numbers and their source.
Would you consider "his imagination" as a valid reference?
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  #39  
Old 12 Jul 15, 20:53
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The point is that nothing else is equal other than the engines. The plane is much lighter.
Why would you assume that the airframe could be totally redesigned, but then the engines would remain the same? Far easier, more sensible and effective to cut weight without completely redoing the airframe (and in particular, no need to cut down on the total wing area, which you erroneously assumed was the cause of reduced maneuverability) and then put in more powerful engines.
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Old 12 Jul 15, 21:27
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Would you consider "his imagination" as a valid reference?
Well, he might be using this:

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Old 12 Jul 15, 22:26
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Why would you assume that the airframe could be totally redesigned, but then the engines would remain the same? Far easier, more sensible and effective to cut weight without completely redoing the airframe (and in particular, no need to cut down on the total wing area, which you erroneously assumed was the cause of reduced maneuverability) and then put in more powerful engines.
Because I specified that design, since it makes infinitely more sense for a fighter.

I stated that the huge wing area rendered it terribly slow for its power, as did the crew, armament, large fusuelage and tail (which is proportional to the wing area), heavy landing gear (for the masswive load).

The only thing that improved with a low wing loading is the turning radius and as I already explained, the same can be achieved with a lighter plane, s smaller wing area and auttomatic slats.

You seem to belong to the club who argue that the Stirling had excellent fighting characteristics, because of her short radius and ignore that it was the best 4 engine target, which is why it was useless.

Slats are much better than a large wing, since they provide lift when you need it for TO, climb, landing or a turn and retract to minimize drag at high speed. It is surprising that they were used in the Bf 109, but they chose a ridiculously huge wing for their most expensive fighter.
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Old 13 Jul 15, 00:12
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You seem to belong to the club who argue that the Stirling had excellent fighting characteristics, because of her short radius and ignore that it was the best 4 engine target, which is why it was useless.
Lower ceiling made the Stirling an easier target, the night fighters got to them first always while the other bombers flew overhead.

There was no fixing the 110, make a real escort fighter instead.

The 109 TO issues have been greatly exaggerated.
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Old 13 Jul 15, 02:43
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Because I specified that design, since it makes infinitely more sense for a fighter.....
No, it's purely a figment of your imagination, based on no real world information.

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You seem to belong to the club who argue that the Stirling had excellent fighting characteristics, because of her short radius and ignore that it was the best 4 engine target, which is why it was useless.....
You seem to be the founding member of the 'club' that would rather make up things rather than researching and making proposals that abide by real world constraints.
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  #44  
Old 13 Jul 15, 04:10
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It is surprising that the superb Ju 88 and Bf 110 turkey suffered heavier losses in the BoB (mostly to Hurricanes) than the more numerous He 111.
The Ju 88 was still an un-proven design, and had a number of bugs that needed to be ironed out. The definitive A-4 version didn't appear until after the battle was over.

The Bf 110 was used to dogfight single-seaters, a role in which any twin-engined fighter would've had problems. The 110's speed and firepower, while excellent, availed it little.

This is a link to one of many sources which cite a rear gun in the Fulmar, photos are thin on the ground.

http://www.airvectors.net/avfyfly.html
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  #45  
Old 13 Jul 15, 07:51
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Because I specified that design, since it makes infinitely more sense for a fighter.

I stated that the huge wing area rendered it terribly slow for its power, as did the crew, armament, large fusuelage and tail (which is proportional to the wing area), heavy landing gear (for the masswive load).

The only thing that improved with a low wing loading is the turning radius and as I already explained, the same can be achieved with a lighter plane, s smaller wing area and auttomatic slats.

You seem to belong to the club who argue that the Stirling had excellent fighting characteristics, because of her short radius and ignore that it was the best 4 engine target, which is why it was useless.

Slats are much better than a large wing, since they provide lift when you need it for TO, climb, landing or a turn and retract to minimize drag at high speed. It is surprising that they were used in the Bf 109, but they chose a ridiculously huge wing for their most expensive fighter.
Draco,it's really quite simple,no twin engine fighter was ever a match for a single,Beaufighter,Mosquito,110,P38,they all were inferior to singles.
Their roll rate was just not good enough,they had to overcome the inertia of two massive engine sitting away from the fulcrum and then they had to attempt to haul that weight around in a turn.

Frankly no matter what it was called and no matter how good it was at other tasks it could not get out of its own way in a hurry,at least not quick enough to evade a single engined fighters attention.

They made fine bomber interceptors but fighters? Nope.
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