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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #16  
Old 09 Jul 15, 17:26
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No doubt the time travelers arrived in Göring's hot tub...
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  #17  
Old 09 Jul 15, 18:12
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Originally Posted by grishnak View Post
Capture of the BEF at Dunkirk,quickly followed by an already planed unmentionable seaborne operation .
Wouldn't the RAF still stand in the way of this unmentionable seaborne op?

I'm probably here, but if the Germans somehow managed to win the Battle of Britain, seems to me like only then could they really consider a seaborne invasion.

I wonder if there's some "foresight intelligence" that the time travellers could give that would deal a crushing blow to the RAF pretty much at once.


It's really strange talking about this sort of thing, I have to say. Of course, luckily there's not much more than a snowball's chance in hell of this ever happening!
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  #18  
Old 09 Jul 15, 18:20
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Well, in terms of the 'send back data' concept, what could the Germans have done in pre-war/1-40 that would make the invasion possible?


What if, tipped off, they arranged for Churchill to die in 1938?
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  #19  
Old 09 Jul 15, 18:36
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Anyway, back to the OP: tech might not be the best thing for the reasons given, but what about information?
That would be the killer, IMHO. Send someone back who knew all the dates and events and that would be game over.
If you could make the most paranoid and unpredictable clique of rulers outside of Moscow believe you, that is...

But then again, you may have just created an alternate universe, forever appart from this one.

Such as the one we live in might be.
After all, how do we know some time-traveler didn't already go back in time, and provide the information needed to crack the Enigma Codes?

Twilight Zone, here we come...
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  #20  
Old 09 Jul 15, 18:39
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
That would be the killer, IMHO. Send someone back who knew all the dates and events and that would be game over.
If you could make the most paranoid and unpredictable clique of rulers outside of Moscow believe you, that is...

But then again, you may have just created an alternate universe, forever appart from this one.

Such as the one we live in might be.
After all, how do we know some time-traveler didn't already go back in time, and provide the information needed to crack the Enigma Codes?

Twilight Zone, here we come...
No joke.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 20:19
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Well depending on the information it would only last you only a few months, perhaps a year, as by then things start getting changed, and then the allies react to the new developments...

What good will the knowledge of the Normandy invasion be if they never try to do so?
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  #22  
Old 10 Jul 15, 04:23
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Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
Well depending on the information it would only last you only a few months, perhaps a year, as by then things start getting changed, and then the allies react to the new developments...

What good will the knowledge of the Normandy invasion be if they never try to do so?
yes, that's it. The chance of an intel sucker punch remains, though, a one-time hit.
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  #23  
Old 10 Jul 15, 17:11
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Given a long enough lead time, and some ability to keep the project(s) secret, it would be possible to radically change one side's chances with this scenario.

Simply offering historical information is a one shot deal, maybe a few time deal at most. After that the timeline deviates and historical knowledge becomes largely worthless.

Technical knowledge could potentially change things, but it would have to be done over say 3 to 10 years depending on the technology being affected.

The ones I see in 1935 - 1945 being potential game changers that meet the above criteria in that could have serious affects are:

Nuclear weapons. The problem would be actually making use of the knowledge as it would still require a massive program and massive investment.

Supersonic flight and jet engines. This is doable and if the data on supersonic flight were kept secret it would be hard for the other side to duplicate it. A crashed plane is not going to easily reveal why it is capable of supersonic flight.

Explosives and munitions. There have been many advances in this field since 1935 and these could be applied to make munitions more effective or to make them cheaper to produce.

Materials science. There have been massive advances in materials since 1935 and many of these would be very useful in making stuff. Plastics, ceramics, carbon fiber... there is a huge list of materials that would be useful to a military.
Kevlar for example. Nomex is another. Bullet and flame resistant materials would be highly useful.

Even introducing modern manufacturing and safety techniques to factories would be a huge plus. In WW 2 America had more people killed and injured in industrial accidents than on battlefields. Reducing that loss of labor potential would have a dramatic affect on productivity.

Electronics. Introducing circuit boards and smaller more efficient components would be revolutionary. Again, duplicating that technology might not be easy for another nation even if they had samples to go off of.

I'd think that a bunch of smaller, not so noticeable changes to technology such that the overall affect greatly enhanced effectiveness would be preferable to a few really big flashy things. The later would get the enemy's attention quickly and push them towards a countermeasure as quickly as possible.
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  #24  
Old 12 Jul 15, 12:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Meanwhile, explain how one gets around the Physical Law of "Conservation of Matter and Energy" nearly every "Time Travel" scenario violates? !
One way of getting round the physics arguments against time travel is via Nick Bostrom's simulation argument http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html. If a modern individual found themselves transported into the past, with or without modern equipment, they would probably consider it very likely that they were in a simulation. From the point of someone writing fiction, that would introduce an extra interesting layer of psychological complexity into the modern character or characters thinking. However, the basic story would still run even if the character imagined that his actions were being watched by a collection of lazy PhD students (lazy because they haven't found a more subtle way of playing with history).
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  #25  
Old 12 Jul 15, 13:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostlyharmless View Post
One way of getting round the physics arguments against time travel is via Nick Bostrom's simulation argument http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html. If a modern individual found themselves transported into the past, with or without modern equipment, they would probably consider it very likely that they were in a simulation. From the point of someone writing fiction, that would introduce an extra interesting layer of psychological complexity into the modern character or characters thinking. However, the basic story would still run even if the character imagined that his actions were being watched by a collection of lazy PhD students (lazy because they haven't found a more subtle way of playing with history).
Going back in time is a physical impossibility because it violates conservation of matter by adding mass to the universe. Since the matter used to make up the time traveler and his time machine already existed in the past, going back in time would introduce duplicates of said matter thus adding mass to the universe.
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  #26  
Old 12 Jul 15, 14:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Going back in time is a physical impossibility because it violates conservation of matter by adding mass to the universe. Since the matter used to make up the time traveler and his time machine already existed in the past, going back in time would introduce duplicates of said matter thus adding mass to the universe.
That's only true if the time traveler moved back at less than the speed of light. At the speed of light time is essentially infinite or irrelevant.

The other way would be if the universe is a closed loop. Then you could move forward to the end of the universe which would also be the beginning of the universe and then move forward from there to the point you want to be at.
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  #27  
Old 13 Jul 15, 02:54
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WWII technology could be improved through time travel within reason, but each generation of technology is built on the last and it's difficult to skip steps. So you could probably give some blueprints and ideas for late 40's early 50's stuff to them on the proviso that you might need to make a few cuts here and there and it would need a whole host of supporting technology transfers to go along with it.

In the specific case of WWII, the Nazis would need *a lot* of help to win. If you were a nazi-sympathizing time traveller you would have your work cut out for you. Helping the Allies would be a lot easier to get a strongly influential outcome, since several key German victories could have been prevented with foresight.

I sometimes think about what I would do if I could deliver help through a time machine to the Western Allies, though. A Sherman-tier tank being built in British and French factories in 1937-38 might be very cool, along with instructions on how to counteract Fall Gelb. The war might be over by 41.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Going back in time is a physical impossibility because it violates conservation of matter by adding mass to the universe. Since the matter used to make up the time traveler and his time machine already existed in the past, going back in time would introduce duplicates of said matter thus adding mass to the universe.
You can "solve" this problem through the same mechanism that you solve causality issues, assume that there is a multiverse of fixed timelines. Any time there is physical uncertainty, this is resolved not by selecting one outcome "at random", but by selecting all outcomes, existing each in their own discrete universe. This is the "many-worlds" interpretation of QM. If you imagine that a time machine causes a fork in the road in the same way, you preserve the original timeline because each act of time travel is actually travel to another universe, rather than accessing their own timeline. Energy is not conserved within an individual timeline, but is across the broader context of the multiverse.

The most elegant way to preserve causality is to disallow time travel, but that wouldn't make for a very fun counterfactual now would it.

Last edited by ThoseDeafMutes; 13 Jul 15 at 03:04..
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  #28  
Old 13 Jul 15, 13:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoseDeafMutes View Post
You can "solve" this problem through the same mechanism that you solve causality issues, assume that there is a multiverse of fixed timelines. Any time there is physical uncertainty, this is resolved not by selecting one outcome "at random", but by selecting all outcomes, existing each in their own discrete universe. This is the "many-worlds" interpretation of QM. If you imagine that a time machine causes a fork in the road in the same way, you preserve the original timeline because each act of time travel is actually travel to another universe, rather than accessing their own timeline. Energy is not conserved within an individual timeline, but is across the broader context of the multiverse.

The most elegant way to preserve causality is to disallow time travel, but that wouldn't make for a very fun counterfactual now would it.
Or you can just ask this guy, who's apparently got it down pat!

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  #29  
Old 13 Jul 15, 13:34
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Or you can just ask this guy, who's apparently got it down pat!

You know you can trust a guy with a mullet...

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  #30  
Old 13 Jul 15, 15:43
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Well assuming we are the sort to help Germany...

Things that might help.
roughly 1933
German Navy is to start working on a Automatic 37mm AA gun, at the same time a DP 5 inch gun, instead of their surface use only weapons.

Also at this time is to start building a large scale manufacturing plant for tanks, using the latest techniques. Even if we use the "German" method I still want it to be able to assemble 100 tanks at one time (IIRC this is twice the capacity of a number of German tank factories).

Around 1934, start consolidating military trucks and cars into at most 10 different types, basically the Schnell plan done about 5 years earlier. Also stick to them, unless a new one is urgently needed then replace it.

Consolidate the Panzer III and IV programs into one, but keep the Panzer IVs turret ring... Perhaps up the design weight to about 20 tons instead of 18ish tons while were at it.

1935 Start working on a semiauto rifle to replace the K98...

Standardize on artillery types and calibers, curtail some of the larger gun calibers of marginal use vs manpower costs.

1936
start working on a suitable tractor for military use, to assist construction work

1937
German navy investigates the use of snorkels for submarines
they also start work on a high capacity battery system also for submarines

1939
A centralized program for Radar research is instituted, to better coordinate the different company's involved, also a 2nd look into uses of the cavity magnetron, the main reason the Germans did not bother with it in the first place was that magnetrons suck at coherence, which is what the Germans where looking for in radar...

Some time between 1937 and 1939 what becomes the He 177 is not modified to include dive bombing, this IIRC saves about a year of R&D time allowing more time to fix the aircraft's other bugs... As such the aircraft now enters service in late 1941 or early 1942.

Also considers to consolidate the Sd.kfz 250 & 251 series for more streamlined production capability's.
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