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  #1  
Old 09 Jul 15, 04:14
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Time travelers aid Nazi Germany during WW2

What if men from the future travel back in time to WW2 and give the Wehrmacht weaponry/tech from the modern era. It could be rifles such as the Kalashnikov like in the novel that this prompt is based on or it could be any other variety of weaponry and equipment good enough to give the Wehrmacht an edge over the Allies.

The book Guns of the South by Turtledove inspired this idea. In the book members of a South African white supremacist group go back in time to 1864 and give the Confederacy access to the AK 47 rifle. Using this weapon along with other goodies they manage to win the war against the North.

The motivation behind giving aid to the worst regime in human history in this scenario could either be ideological or simply for fun.

The aid could come in the form of modern knowledge like schematics and info on engineering, metallurgy, chemistry, jet engines etc. It could be knowledge on how to build a nuclear bomb successfully so they don't make the mistakes they did in our timeline. It could be equipment, fuel, vehicles, small arms, ammunition, UAVs, computers to avoid Allied decryption or anything you can imagine.

I'm leaving this as open ended so whatever ideas you have post them. Only thing I'm going to say is that the aid can't come from any time period further than 2020. So anything before 2020 is fair game to be taken back to the '30s or '40s.
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  #2  
Old 09 Jul 15, 04:31
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Funny how trying to help the nazi to winn ww2 isn't funny .
You didn't live with them on the back like my family did.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 04:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmyers1980 View Post
What if men from the future travel back in time to WW2 and give the Wehrmacht weaponry/tech from the modern era. It could be rifles such as the Kalashnikov like in the novel that this prompt is based on or it could be any other variety of weaponry and equipment good enough to give the Wehrmacht an edge over the Allies.

The book Guns of the South by Turtledove inspired this idea. In the book members of a South African white supremacist group go back in time to 1864 and give the Confederacy access to the AK 47 rifle. Using this weapon along with other goodies they manage to win the war against the North.

The motivation behind giving aid to the worst regime in human history in this scenario could either be ideological or simply for fun.

The aid could come in the form of modern knowledge like schematics and info on engineering, metallurgy, chemistry, jet engines etc. It could be knowledge on how to build a nuclear bomb successfully so they don't make the mistakes they did in our timeline. It could be equipment, fuel, vehicles, small arms, ammunition, UAVs, computers to avoid Allied decryption or anything you can imagine.

I'm leaving this as open ended so whatever ideas you have post them. Only thing I'm going to say is that the aid can't come from any time period further than 2020. So anything before 2020 is fair game to be taken back to the '30s or '40s.
Let's take Harry's AK 47 scenario. If the AK-47's aren't supplied along with all the ammunition, it is a useless gesture. There is no means for the South to produce the steel to make the weapons. The necessary alloy agents aren't even available at the time, even if the elements themselves are known.
The South lacks the means to make cartridges and lacks the supply of brass for them in any case.
To make the smokeless powder requires vast quantities of nitric acid along with more for the primers, even if something like fulminate of mercury is used.
Then, there is no means to machine the parts to the necessary tolerances nor to polish things as machine tools haven't progressed that far yet.
Also, the North could have supplied Spencer and Henry repeaters to their troops in response. While not quite the volume of fire, repeating rifles would likely be enough to prevent a Southern rout / victory.
It would take considerably more than that for them to win.

The same goes for WW 2. For example, the Germans (or for that matter anybody) couldn't produce 2015 level electronics. Even 1950's electronics would be a challenge. The US might get transistors in production along with other early semi-conductors as Bell labs was working on them at the time.
Even something like making through hole circuit boards would take years to set up for production and that technology was invented in 1943.

Same goes for whatever.

It might be possible to shorten Germany's time to a nuclear weapon since they were already doing basic research. But, even that requires enrichment of the uranium or production of plutonium on a scale that would serious dent the German economy.

Unless you can find a technology that the Germans could actually produce in a reasonable time at a reasonable cost that caused a real paradigm shift rendering some other major technology obsolete, it really doesn't make a difference.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 04:55
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Meanwhile, explain how one gets around the Physical Law of "Conservation of Matter and Energy" nearly every "Time Travel" scenario violates? !
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Old 09 Jul 15, 04:56
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The Nazis invented the weapon which inspired the AK-47, and their technology gave rise to most weapon advancements since 1945 - it wasn't for nothing that the German armaments industry was described as putting, "The best possible weapons in the worst possible hands."

Thankfully for the world, their ingenuity came to nothing and they still lost. Believe me, anyone with more than a nodding acquaintance of History would want to keep it that way.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 05:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmyers1980 View Post
What if men from the future travel back in time to WW2 and give the Wehrmacht weaponry/tech from the modern era. It could be rifles such as the Kalashnikov like in the novel that this prompt is based on or it could be any other variety of weaponry and equipment good enough to give the Wehrmacht an edge over the Allies.

The book Guns of the South by Turtledove inspired this idea. In the book members of a South African white supremacist group go back in time to 1864 and give the Confederacy access to the AK 47 rifle. Using this weapon along with other goodies they manage to win the war against the North.

The motivation behind giving aid to the worst regime in human history in this scenario could either be ideological or simply for fun.

The aid could come in the form of modern knowledge like schematics and info on engineering, metallurgy, chemistry, jet engines etc. It could be knowledge on how to build a nuclear bomb successfully so they don't make the mistakes they did in our timeline. It could be equipment, fuel, vehicles, small arms, ammunition, UAVs, computers to avoid Allied decryption or anything you can imagine.

I'm leaving this as open ended so whatever ideas you have post them. Only thing I'm going to say is that the aid can't come from any time period further than 2020. So anything before 2020 is fair game to be taken back to the '30s or '40s.
I think it'd purely be ideological; no one is going to help them for teh lulz. It'd be a neo-nazi group or something like that.

The easiest help to offer would probably be foresight. Knowing the consequences of doing whatever it is they're planning to do. For instance maybe getting the point across that there would be no Allied invasion at Calais. Although that's assuming they did nothing to help the Germans earlier in the war than that. Which is unlikely, unless they plopped into Germany in earlier 1944 or something. But I don't know that they'd be able to completely turn the tide of the war as in Nazis rule the world, with just foresight alone. As soon as the Germans choose to change up the plan from history and execute it, that's the one time they can play the card. After that, they create new circumstances from which they need to form new plans, which aren't the same as they were historically.

Now with more material help in addition, yeah that could change things. Theoretically the helpers might be able to get the Germans to standardize (or emphasize more) jet aircraft, assault rifles, and helicopters early on. These have the potential to cause serious trouble, and even if not sterling at first, simply because they're not trying to get them out late in the war, they have the luxary of some time to work on more and better designs. Specifically I'm thinking about the Me 262. Perhaps they'd be able to kick things off with having a good number of them, and eventually start working on earlier Cold War era jet aircraft like from the Korean War at least.

There's a 3 part series of books by John Birmingham about a near-futuristic force being transported back to WWII, and they help the allies. I believe that in one part, some modern SAS guys meet up with some WWII SAS guys and they insert for a mission in some Chinooks which they're able to make in the WWII world. I think they help with jet engine and jet aircraft development too, and so forth. Fun reads, read them when I was younger. I'm sure they're stupid now lol.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 05:25
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or simply for fun.
You mean, like psychopaths find torturing kittens funny, only on a larger scale? That sort of funny?
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Old 09 Jul 15, 05:31
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Originally Posted by Super Six 4 View Post
The easiest help to offer would probably be foresight.
...
As soon as the Germans choose to change up the plan from history and execute it, that's the one time they can play the card. After that, they create new circumstances from which they need to form new plans, which aren't the same as they were historically.
Exactly.

Quote:
Now with more material help in addition, yeah that could change things. Theoretically the helpers might be able to get the Germans to standardize (or emphasize more) jet aircraft, assault rifles, and helicopters early on.
No.
This works only if they bring their own jets and missiles and stuff from the future. Trying to "emphasize" stuff built in 1939-1945, with technology of that era and the materials actually available to the Germans, isn't going to work. Jets built by the Germans in that era will still have to rely on poor materials for their engines due to the shortage of raw resources. Assault rifles can be countered with existing technology. And helicopters built with WWII-era technology and performance are dead meat as soon as a Spitfire moves in. Etc. etc.
So these geniuses have to bring along all their stuff. And spare parts and ammunition. And supplies. And technicians for the maintenance. And so on.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 10:16
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Meanwhile, explain how one gets around the Physical Law of "Conservation of Matter and Energy" nearly every "Time Travel" scenario violates? !
Beat me to it.

That's why it's only possibly to go into the future, unless we start talking about parallel universes or some other exotic concept.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 10:38
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Beat me to it.

That's why it's only possibly to go into the future, unless we start talking about parallel universes or some other exotic concept.
That's what it usually ends up with. Alternate Earths. Given that, as I showed above, it would take an entire government madly and fully dedicated to sending a significant part of its futuristic armory to the Nazis, what it usually takes is a full Alternate Earth where Nazi Germany has won the war, which has the knowledge and means to travel to other parallel universes and help the Nazis in those.

Xtreme indeed; it's that tack chosen by the publisher of my stuff, Steve Jackson Games, for its "any setting" roleplaying game, GURPS.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/infiniteworlds/. Yes, the thing is aptly named Infinite Worlds.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 10:46
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I like Tim power's theory of time travel in the Anibus Gates, where at certain points in history it is possible to go back in time. He likened it to Time being a river coated in ice; if you were at a spot in the river with a hole in the ice, you could move outside to river to another hole and re-enter.

Anyway, back to the OP: tech might not be the best thing for the reasons given, but what about information?

What if you could tell them that the Brits had broken their codes, give them a list of the top spies within their organization, and explained Allied countermeasures to Uboats? Tell them the importance of the radar station chain in Britain?

I doubt you could make them win, but you could certainly make tings rougher for the Allies.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 12:25
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Beat me to it.

That's why it's only possibly to go into the future, unless we start talking about parallel universes or some other exotic concept.
Forward into the future is also problematic.

"There is a finite amount of matter and energy, and while either can change to the other, neither can occupy two places in space(universe) at the same moment in time."

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Old 09 Jul 15, 12:48
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Forward into the future is also problematic.

"There is a finite amount of matter and energy, and while either can change to the other, neither can occupy two places in space(universe) at the same moment in time."

Time traveling into the future through the manipulation of gravity doesn't violate conservation of mass/energy. Going backwards, though, does.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 13:16
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Quote:
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What if you could tell them that the Brits had broken their codes, give them a list of the top spies within their organization, and explained Allied countermeasures to Uboats? Tell them the importance of the radar station chain in Britain?

There is no guarantee that the British / Allies wouldn't break an alternative code. Also, the mere use of radio extensively as the U-boats were doing was an issue as the Allies were using HF/DF to track them.
That would mean the Germans would have to abandon their whole wolfpack / centrally controlled U-boat plan for something else.

British radar alone isn't going to make a difference. The Germans knew the British had radar. It was Britain's whole fighter control system that's the problem.

Now, one might point out how to make hard to detect and harder to jam navigation systems than the ones the Germans had allowing accurate night bombing.
Or how to jam radar and the use of chaff. That would give temporary advantages to the Germans.
Showing them how to get a reasonable IR system using liquid nitrogen cooled sensor heads would help. That might give them a IR seeking AAM. A semi-active AAM is possible too.
Showing them the necessary equations and engineering to manufacture supersonic aircraft would be a major breakthrough. With jet engine technology available the Germans could have built a supersonic jet fighter with AAM's on par with say the early 50's using that information.
That would be a paradigm shift that would make a huge difference. Shifting to jet fuel would have eased Germany's petroleum problems too.
That whole activity only takes keeping it secret from the Allies until full production of the systems is in place.

Now, showing the Germans how to do sky wave and back scatter bounce radio transmissions would make a difference. Now, U-boats could transmit and receive radio transmissions that the Allies couldn't intercept. That makes HF/DF irrelevant and the code issue irrelevant too.
That technology is known but poorly understood. By making available the travelling wave tube and cavity magnetron to the Germans in 1939 VHF transmissions could be done and the technology made militarily useful.

So, there are technologies that could be transferred but they generally aren't directly weapons but rather ones that make the available weapons more efficient.
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Old 09 Jul 15, 15:07
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grishnak is on the path to success [1-99] grishnak is on the path to success [1-99] grishnak is on the path to success [1-99] grishnak is on the path to success [1-99] grishnak is on the path to success [1-99] grishnak is on the path to success [1-99]
Shutting down useless programs and devoting research to ones of use would make some difference.Better tanks u boats and aircraft sooner and in greater numbers.Greater effort in the Med and NA to access oil in Libya and the ability to transport it. If this transfer of information happens in the 30 s a series of fatal accidents for people that were to play a major part in the war to come.
Capture of the BEF at Dunkirk,quickly followed by an already planed unmentionable seaborne operation .Or a diplomatic operation to take the UK out of the war,Polish Free state set up in the General Government area and withdrawal from the west a set time after a peace deal, no air attack on the UK.
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