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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #61  
Old 12 Jul 15, 18:23
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The campaign was an utter rout for the Allies. Again, they were outmaneuvered, cut up, and overpowered by the Japanese. It's not something that adding in a few extra planes could have prevented, and even if they were there there was little they could have done in the face of superior numbers. You're talking about a handful of planes vs hundreds of Japanese aircraft.
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  #62  
Old 12 Jul 15, 22:53
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It is easy to outmaneuver the opponent when one has hundreds of bombers and the enemy has practically none (a few useless SB and Aurax) and a small fraction as many fighters.

The aviation disparity in Burma was much greater than in France, where the allies had more fighters than the LW had Bf 109s (although the French fighters and 2 blade Hurricanes were inferior).

A few escorted allied bombers could have easily stopped the mobilized column advancing to Toungoo and Lashio.

They could have easily wiped out the road blocks (which Alexander survived by shear luck) and blocked the other columns.

Allied ground forces were more than sufficient to defend that extremely rough country. It was the allies who doomed the Indian division, deployed the Burma division from Toungoo too late, abandonned Rangoon, allowed the IJN to land two divisions in Rangoon (as if the RN didn't exist), wasted 18 Hurricanes at the critical time and allowed the IJAAF to run amok.

It never ceases to amuse me that Americans find perfectly reasonable that 16 invaluable B-25 be wasted for the Doolittle raid and 17 B-17 be wasted for Midway and dozens of B-24, etc, be wasted in level bombing ships in the first 8 months of 1942, while there are no modern bombers in China or Burma, where millions of Chinese and a few P-40 face nearly a million japanese and hundreds of IJAAF planes.

Last edited by Draco; 12 Jul 15 at 23:01..
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  #63  
Old 13 Jul 15, 00:42
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I guess Draco never heard or read about Operation Strangle...
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  #64  
Old 13 Jul 15, 03:50
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I guess Draco never heard or read about Operation Strangle...
Well either he hasn't or will draw the wrong conclusions.

AFAIK as an operation vs supply lines it failed, though it did seem to have some effect on troop mobility, though this I would assume is partly due to German forces available in the area and how they where used.

I would also Assume that a few dozen bombers would not have the same effect as hundreds.

Reading the RAND study linked to by wikis article, mentions the allies where averaging 1,350 sorties a day (daily average over the coarse of the operation, as their where days where not missions could be done) , with more than 3,000 per day on peak days.

I do not think they could of operated at that rate in any case...
Never mind the far less capable payloads they could bring with the current aircraft.
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  #65  
Old 13 Jul 15, 10:09
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Operation stranglehold is as applicable to the Japanese in Burma in 1942 as the charge of the light brigade.
It was designed to support a few guerrillas attacking a defending army in a small area. In this scenario there are more allied troops defending against attacking Japanese troops in 4 columns over a huge area, a truely difficult offensive situation for the Japanese, who had extremely poor logistics and depending on advancing rapídly and capturing fuel, etc, just like Rommel did. Any point of strong resistance stops a column in its tracks and deprives it of supplies (as in Alam el Halfa, el Alamein, etc, where planes saved the day by boosting defenses and denying even the limited supplies).
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  #66  
Old 13 Jul 15, 11:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Operation stranglehold is as applicable to the Japanese in Burma in 1942 as the charge of the light brigade.
It was designed to support a few guerrillas attacking a defending army in a small area. In this scenario there are more allied troops defending against attacking Japanese troops in 4 columns over a huge area, a truely difficult offensive situation for the Japanese, who had extremely poor logistics and depending on advancing rapídly and capturing fuel, etc, just like Rommel did. Any point of strong resistance stops a column in its tracks and deprives it of supplies (as in Alam el Halfa, el Alamein, etc, where planes saved the day by boosting defenses and denying even the limited supplies).
Japanese logistics on the ground were comparable to what the Germans and other modern armies had. The number of trucks in an average IJA infantry division was about the same as in its German counterpart.

There was virtually nothing the Allies could have done to stop Burma from falling. At the beginning of this thread, I posted that it wouldn't have mattered if the 18 Hurricanes had been 18 F-22 Raptors. I meant it. The Allies were too few and far between, and they lacked the training, mobility, and firepower to stop the IJA. Whatever planes that could be mustered were far too weak to hold back IJAAF, and they weren't going to do jack against the ground offensive.

In 1944 the entire 14th Air Force was hurled against the Japanese Ichi-Go offensive in the hopes of slowing or stopping their advance. The result? The total destruction of the Chinese forces in Southeast China and the overrunning of many of the 14th's aerodromes by Japanese tanks. That was the effort of an entire air force, which not including Chinese aviation numbered over 900 planes in December '44. You really think a dozen Hurricanes could have done anything for Burma?
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  #67  
Old 13 Jul 15, 12:08
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BS
Germany invaded France with so many trucks and horses that they created the largest traffic jam in Europe to date. The mobilized IJA division advanced to Toungoo & Lashio (much longer distances than in France and much further from the home country) in great part thanks to 400 vehicles captured in Singapore, the W infantry columns had extremely few trucks and horses, so much so that the road blocks that threatened the BA retreat involved a ridiculous number of trucks.
The W columns succeeded only thanks to abundant captured supplies and to reinforcements (2 divisions!) and supplies thorugh Rangoon, an incredible allied blunder.
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  #68  
Old 13 Jul 15, 12:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Operation stranglehold is as applicable to the Japanese in Burma in 1942 as the charge of the light brigade.
It was designed to support a few guerrillas attacking a defending army in a small area. In this scenario there are more allied troops defending against attacking Japanese troops in 4 columns over a huge area, a truely difficult offensive situation for the Japanese, who had extremely poor logistics and depending on advancing rapídly and capturing fuel, etc, just like Rommel did. Any point of strong resistance stops a column in its tracks and deprives it of supplies (as in Alam el Halfa, el Alamein, etc, where planes saved the day by boosting defenses and denying even the limited supplies).
Absolutely wrong. Both the WW 2 version and the Korean War version both show exactly the same thing. Even the rather minimal Wiki entry notes it. Your second paragraph shows you have no idea what Operation Strangle actually was or how it was supposed to work.

Quote:
According to a 1972 Rand Corporation case study of the mission, Operation Strangle was an important milestone in the development of United States military interdiction doctrine. The report's conclusion was that the overriding objective of supply denial was unattainable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Strangle

Seeing as how I have the mentioned Rand Study as well as an analysis by Trevor Dupuy, I can conclusively say they know more about it than you ever will.
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  #69  
Old 13 Jul 15, 13:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
BS
Germany invaded France with so many trucks and horses that they created the largest traffic jam in Europe to date. The mobilized IJA division advanced to Toungoo & Lashio (much longer distances than in France and much further from the home country) in great part thanks to 400 vehicles captured in Singapore, the W infantry columns had extremely few trucks and horses, so much so that the road blocks that threatened the BA retreat involved a ridiculous number of trucks.
The W columns succeeded only thanks to abundant captured supplies and to reinforcements (2 divisions!) and supplies thorugh Rangoon, an incredible allied blunder.
Is that so? Got sources? I do.

According to Spencer Tucker in "The Second World War" as late as 1944 as much as 85 percent of the German Army was still horse-drawn. Even panzer divisions placed great reliance on horses for logistics work.

According to Walter S. Dunn's "The Soviet Economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945" pg. 53, a typical German infantry division in 1943 had 2,652 horses but only 256 trucks in its logistical train.

The standard IJA Type B infantry division was similarly supplied, with 3,466 horses and roughly 310 trucks.

Of course, these numbers varied depending on which type of division is discussed. Toland states that for Yamashita's final 30,000-man assault on Singapore the IJA assault divisions had more than 3,000 trucks between them. Some reinforced panzer divisions had over 1,000 trucks as well.

Another example: according to Coox, the Kwantung Army in late 1941 had almost 30,000 motor between its 760,000 men. This means they had a vehicle density equal to that of the 2.5 million men of the Soviet 1st Ukrainian and 1st and 2nd Belorussian Fronts in their final assault on Berlin and central Germany, who had 95,383 motor vehicles, many American-made, supporting their advance (Earl Ziemke, "Battle for Berlin: End of the Third Reich" pg. 71).
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  #70  
Old 13 Jul 15, 14:31
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It's rather dumb to say as late as 1944, since in 1944 the Germans were facing thousands of Sturmoviks, twin engine bombers and fighters (the Soviets ruled the air and land) and 12,000 W allied planes (practically no LW planes left in France and Belgium) and had far fewer trucks and trains than when they invaded France or the USSR (in 1945 they had even fewer trucks and trains and relied almost exclusively on horses).
I did specify trucks AND HORSES in Francein 1940. In contrast, the Japanese didn't even use horses and mules in large scale and efficiently (the hundreds of thousands used in German campaigns) and used ridiculously few trucks for the size of China and Burma (and Malaya, etc,). They didn't even use bicycles to haul large amounts of supplies as the Vitnamese did so masterfully against the French in Dienbienfu. They had by far the worst land logistics of any modern power in WW II. They were lucky to have the British supply them.
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  #71  
Old 13 Jul 15, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It's rather dumb to say as late as 1944, since in 1944 the Germans were facing thousands of Sturmoviks, twin engine bombers and fighters (the Soviets ruled the air and land) and 12,000 W allied planes (practically no LW planes left in France and Belgium) and had far fewer trucks and trains than when they invaded France or the USSR (in 1945 they had even fewer trucks and trains and relied almost exclusively on horses).
I did specify trucks AND HORSES in Francein 1940. In contrast, the Japanese didn't even use horses and mules in large scale and efficiently (the hundreds of thousands used in German campaigns) and used ridiculously few trucks for the size of China and Burma (and Malaya, etc,). They didn't even use bicycles to haul large amounts of supplies as the Vitnamese did so masterfully against the French in Dienbienfu. They had by far the worst land logistics of any modern power in WW II.
Can you post any sources backing up your opinion?

Didn't think so...

Japanese didn't use horses on a large scale? I already posted the considerable role they had in each division, whether German or Japanese. The half-million man Ichi-Go offensive in 1944 saw 15,500 trucks and 100,000 horses supporting the advance, which inflicted around 480,000 Chinese casualties, overran the 14th Air Force, and opened a land corridor to Viet Nam. Sound ineffective to you? If the Japanese used 'ridiculously few' vehicles, so did the Germans and Soviets...
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  #72  
Old 13 Jul 15, 15:00
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15,500 trucks and 100,000 horses is completely ridiculous for the distance and area area covered by and the number of troops involved in Ichi go.

The beginning of the invasion of France covered a short distance and a tiny area and involved over 120,000 trucks and 230,000 horses. Even the invasions of Poland and Yugoslavia with smaller forces and facing much smaller armies than the Chinese army had used more horses and trucks than Ichi go (plus Soviet ones in Poland and Italian ones in Yugoslavia).

A single Panzer division used thousands of trucks in Barbarossa. A single infantry division used over a thousand trucks and 20,000 horses hauling supplies (including food and water for the horses and their handlers)and guns.

!00,000 horses would require at least 10,000 of those horses to haul food and water for themselves and the handlers, leaving 90,000 to haul supplies, guns, ammo, etc, for a half million men, completely inadequate.

15,500 trucks is not enough even to haul fuel for themselves, guns, medical teams and equipment, etc, for a 1/2 million, rapidly advancing men.

Japanese troops often received barely enough calories and ammunition to survive during an offensive and received extremely poor medical care as a result of those lousy logistics.
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  #73  
Old 13 Jul 15, 15:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
15,500 trucks and 100,000 horses is completely ridiculous for the distance and area area covered by and the number of troops involved in Ichi go.

The beginning of the invasion of France covered a short distance and a tiny area and involved over 120,000 trucks and 230,000 horses. Even the invasions of Poland and Yugoslavia with smaller forces and facing much smaller armies than the Chinese army had used more horses and trucks than Ichi go (plus Soviet ones in Poland and Italian ones in Yugoslavia).

A single Panzer division used thousands of trucks in Barbarossa. A single infantry division used over a thousand trucks and 20,000 horses hauling supplies (including food and water for the horses and their handlers)and guns.

!00,000 horses would require at least 10,000 of those horses to haul food and water for themselves and the handlers, leaving 90,000 to haul supplies, guns, ammo, etc, for a half million men, completely inadequate.

15,500 trucks is not enough even to haul fuel for themselves, guns, medical teams and equipment, etc, for a 1/2 million, rapidly advancing men.

Japanese troops often received barely enough calories and ammunition to survive during an offensive and received extremely poor medical care as a result of those lousy logistics.
Before I rip this post to shreds, I have to ask:

Got SOURCES to back up your BS claims? If you can't post a credible source to support what you're saying, we have zero reason to believe you, and this thread transforms from a 'debate' (it was never much of one anyway) into yet another curbstomp.

I've already posted plenty of documented facts to support my argument. If you want your opinion to be at all relevant, you'd better do likewise.
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  #74  
Old 13 Jul 15, 15:12
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Whoever thought that 18 F-22 would have been useless in Burma is clearly delusional.
A single F-22 (with modern munitions, a maintenace crew, spares, etc,) would have won WW II in 2 months. Destroying the IJAAF in weeks and then the LW. Even a single Saber would have wiped out the small IJAAF in weeks (mostly on the ground).

18 Hurricanes in Burma on Feb 3, 1942 would have caused enough damage to allow more AVG planes to survive and 100 more fighters(Hurricanes and P-40E) and dozens of bombers to arrive in Burma within 2 months.
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Old 13 Jul 15, 15:14
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You posted a completely ridiculous transportation system for a major offensive as an example of an excellent one.
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