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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #46  
Old 11 Jul 15, 17:14
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16 B-25 in daily raids on a single city at a time with full loads produce infinitely more damage bombing paper cities at night during a week than 16 B-25 dropping 16 tons of bombs all over Japan and crash landing.

Moreover, after a week those 16 B-25s escorted by P-40 can rapidly decimate the few IJAAF planes in Thailand, Indochina and China without Radar or even observation stations far from base.

It is funny that when war broke out the US ordered a flying boat to fly from Australia to NY over the W Pacific and Atlantic to prevent the advanced engines from being captured, yet Roosevelt delivered plenty of similar engines to Japan with the raid.

Last edited by Draco; 11 Jul 15 at 17:20..
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  #47  
Old 11 Jul 15, 17:22
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16 B-25 in daily raids on a single city at a time with full loads produce infinitely more damage bombing paper cities at night during a week than 16 B-25 dropping 16 tons of bombs all over Japan and crash landing.

Moreover, after a week those 16 B-25s escorted by P-40 can rapidly decimate the few IJAAF planes in Thailand, Indochina and China without Radar or even observation stations far from base.

It is funny that when war broke out the US ordered a flying boat to fly from Australia to NY over the W Pacific and Atlantic to prevent the advanced engines from being captured, yet Roosevelt delivered plenty of similar engines to Japan with the raid.
Exactly where would these B-25 and their P-40 escorts operate from to do this?
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  #48  
Old 11 Jul 15, 18:18
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Moreover, after a week those 16 B-25s escorted by P-40 can rapidly decimate the few IJAAF planes in Thailand, Indochina and China without Radar or even observation stations far from base.
What?
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  #49  
Old 11 Jul 15, 18:32
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A few P-40 strafing IJAAF airfields and dropping a few fragmentation bombs destroyed several planes on the ground with heavy losses.

B-25 with a lot more bombs and ammo and with turrets firing in every direction can destroy a lot more planes on the ground and take take AAA fire much better and away from the fighters.
It is quite unfortunate that Chenault did not receive even the Hudsons and American bomber pilots he was promised (they were sent to Egypt) and had to operate with a few ancient Soviet SB bombers flown by Chinese pilots.

It is unfortunate that Marshall refused to provide B-17 or B-24 and their pilots to Chenault in 1941. Even a dozen would have done even more damage on Japanese cities and continental IJAAF bases from China.
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  #50  
Old 11 Jul 15, 19:15
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A few points:

The AVG formed just a few months before war broke out. The available B-17 were all being sent to the Philippines in that period, then to Australia and Java once the war started. Since the AVG didn't have trained crews for flying B-17, lacked the support services for them, and had no way to reliably fuel and arm them sending any would have been exceedingly stupid.

The 7th BG started operating B-24's out of Karachi and Gaya India in late 1942.

The 492nd BS conducted it's first mission 24 Jan 1943.
The 493rd BS started operations on 24 Oct. 1942.

During 1942 the 11th and 22nd BS re-equipped with B-25 in India and started operations.

The 12th BG with the 81, 82, 83, and 434th BS was equipped with B-25 during 1942 and started operations.

The 341st BG with the 490th and 491st BS with B-25 started operations in 1942 from India too.

As for attacking Japanese cities... There was not one base available to the Allies by late 1942 that was close enough to Japan to allow a B-25 to bomb it.
The second problem was getting the resources into China to do any air operations whatsoever.

Even the early B-29 strikes from China were a logistical nightmare. Each plane had to fly 4 or 5 missions to haul its fuel for a raid to China from India. Then it had to fly a mission from India carrying its bombs and ammunition. It would then be refueled in China largely by hand and make a single strike against Japan.
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  #51  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:11
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Chenault not being stupid offered excellent wages for the plane and land crews for B-17. Marshal was the idiot who flat refused and sent them to waste time and bombs in the PI, Hawaii, Australia, Midway and India (where, as I mentioned, the 6 bloody B-17s only dropped their first bombs on an IJAAF airfield on 5 May, 1942, when Burma had been lost).

It is the best example of incompetent leaderships that 17 B-17s took up a lot of space and resources and accomplished absolutely nothing in Midway during the battle. The B-25 wasted in the Doolittle raid and the dozens of B-17s and B-24s wasted throughout the Pacific doing completely ineffective high altitude, level bombing, would have wiped out the weak and primitive IJAAF supporting the Burma campaign.
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  #52  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:13
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The B-25 wasted in the Doolittle raid and the dozens B-17s wasted throughout the Pacific doing completely ineffective high altitude, level bombing, would have wiped out the weak and primitive IJAAF supporting the Burma campaign.
It was neither of those things. Adding in a handful of extra planes is going to to nil.
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  #53  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:16
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A handful of P-40 did a lot. Add to them a handful of bombers (the original plan) and the IJAAF bites the dust). Add to them the 18 lost Hurricanes and others arriving afterward and the IJAAF losses even faster.
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  #54  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:17
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A handful of P-40 did a lot. Add to them a handful of bombers (the original plan) and the IJAAF bites the dust).
That being?
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  #55  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:22
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The approved project was for the 1st AVG 100 fighter force, followed immediately by the 2nd AVG 100 bomber force (planes, pilots, ground crews and administrative personnel, spares, etc,).

The bombers were sent to Egypt, Winnie's pet project.
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  #56  
Old 12 Jul 15, 11:29
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The approved project was for the 1st AVG 100 fighter force, followed immediately by the 2nd AVG 100 bomber force (planes, pilots, ground crews and administrative personnel, spares, etc,).

The bombers were sent to Egypt, Winnie's pet project.
I meant "what did the handful of P-40s do that was so significant?" Historically their biggest success was probably getting the Japanese to temporarily suspend air raids over their base city. They weren't going to stop an army-scale offensive or shoot down an entire regional air command.
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  #57  
Old 12 Jul 15, 14:38
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Save China, along with Soviet pilots, etc, before them and USAAF pilots after them. Just like Pokrishkin and a few other men saved the USSR. WW II was decided by planes, which is why the US made over 300,000. They just used them rather poorly during 1941, 42 and 43.
The Japanese stopped operating in the area when American planes arrived in Kweilin.

Of course, the AVG would have accomplished much more (including saving Burma and bombing Japan) if the original plan had been executed and if Chenault had received only army fighter pilots (instead of a Catalina pilot who destroyed 3 P-40s, navy fighter pilots who destroyed many more P-40s, etc,) for the 1st AVG and bomber crews for the 2nd AVG.
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  #58  
Old 12 Jul 15, 16:14
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Save China, along with Soviet pilots, etc, before them and USAAF pilots after them. Just like Pokrishkin and a few other men saved the USSR. WW II was decided by planes, which is why the US made over 300,000. They just used them rather poorly during 1941, 42 and 43.
The Japanese stopped operating in the area when American planes arrived in Kweilin.

Of course, the AVG would have accomplished much more (including saving Burma and bombing Japan) if the original plan had been executed and if Chenault had received only army fighter pilots (instead of a Catalina pilot who destroyed 3 P-40s, navy fighter pilots who destroyed many more P-40s, etc,) for the 1st AVG and bomber crews for the 2nd AVG.
Except for one thing. Air power alone doesn't win land wars. The AVG on its own wasn't going to "Save China" or Burma. Nor was the AVG going to "bomb Japan."
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  #59  
Old 12 Jul 15, 16:59
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I mentioned that the Japanese commented that the Chinese presented the only decent opposition in the whole SE Asia campaign, despite having no bomber support and practically no fighter support (the tigers were busy with the IJAAF raids on AVG airfields and raiding IJAAF airfields.

the Chinese and the British armies (after half the Indian division was lost) had limited artillery and faced Japanese air support, so destroying the IJAAF and providing nearly sustained bomber + fighter air support (even by a dozen of each kind of plane) would have been an enormous asset for them.
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Old 12 Jul 15, 17:06
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Had Chenault received the 6 B-17s from India, a lot of slow Ki-27 with two MGs would have been lost trying to shoot them down over IJAAF bases. the numerous .50 caliber guns of the B-17s loaded mostly with incendiary rounds were far more deadly on the Nates than the latter's two, rifle caliber MGs on the huge B-17. Several gunner aces would have resulted, especially with the wildly exagerated claims.
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