HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

Notices and Announcements

Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 09 Jul 15, 12:46
BobTheBarbarian's Avatar
BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
Colonel
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,956
BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I have the liberty to start the thread at any point in time. Without referring back to when Chenault started fighting in China before Hitler invaded Poland or Dec 1941.

Your's is the typical, accepted view that the Japanese were invincible and Burma was lost merely because it was a secondary theater.

Burma was lost only because the considerable allied resources were used in the worst possible way, so that a weak airforce with mostly Ki-27 and light bombers and a few Sallies and Ki-43 (all of them flammable) and a weak army advanced over extremely defensible terrain very fast. In great part thanks to allied airfields, fuel, etc, Rommel all over again, but in much more defensible terrain and against a much less efficient IJA.

Burma fell thanks to allied incompetence much more than because of Japanese strength or ability.

There were 3 airfields far apart in peninsular Burma. They were exposed to the IJAAF and IJA a few miles across the border in Thailand, had weak air and land forces (border police) and were promptly captured with fuel, etc, The northernmost one, Moulmein was very close to Rangoon.
It is quite surprising that after years of war the British had perfected the art of evacuation but not of scorched earth and had not learnt that without a strong air force, it was better to evacuate before the enemy arrived.

The IJA mobile division arrrived in Lashio and then a regiment arrived close to China thanks in part to 400 captured vehicles from Singapore and to captured fuel from the British and then the Chinese.

It is rather amazing that a few Japanese with lousy armament and planes managed to rapidly expel the allies from Burma, despite the large number of Hurricanes and P-40s, millions of Indians and Chinese. thousands of trucks, jeeps and fieldguns, hundreds of tanks, etc,

4 weak Japanese columns penetrated Burma at breakneck pace and defeated over 200,000 allied troops, 400 tanks, etc,

The B-17s were used only to evacuate and performed their first and quite successful bombing of an airfield on 5 May, 1942, when Burma was already lost. In contrast, the Lysanders performed several bombing missions at the critical time!

You forgot to mention the 15th and 17th Hurricane squadrons.

Again, the allies shot themselves in the foot when they wasted 18 urgently needed Hurricanes on 3 Feb, when they yielded airfields with fuel, etc, in peninsular Burma (defended by policemen) and when they strafed and stranded half the Indian division and especially when they yielded extremely defensible terrain without a fight.
Here we go again...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09 Jul 15, 13:04
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,428
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Here we go again...
As those of us from the vinyl recording disc (with groves), LP, would put it; "Broken Record".
Give 'em credit for overacting imagination, but very little grounding in reality, science, finer points of military operations such as logistic, supply, support, etc.
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09 Jul 15, 13:34
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
It is really funny how loguistics always crawl in. As if the IJA and IJAAF did not have a ten fold disadvantage in logistics in Burma, compared to defending forces with decades to prepare and a strong navy in the Indian Ocean. The thrust on Lashio depended completely on captured fuel. The IJA was in a similar logistics situation to Rommel's and both thrived only thanks to the allies' generosity and incompetence. Allied logistics supplied both sides.

The allies were extremely lucky that the Japanese wasted the first crucial months of 1942 invading Burma, Java, etc, against strong forces, instead of capturing weak, invaluable Ceylon in late Feb 1942, securing the W flank and excluding the allies from the W Indian Ocean. After that Japan would have plenty of time to take Java, etc,
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09 Jul 15, 13:38
BobTheBarbarian's Avatar
BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
Colonel
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,956
BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200]
Are we going to have to go through a repeat of the "Hawai'i Invasion" and "Stalin attacks Manchuria in 1938" threads?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09 Jul 15, 14:54
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
A comparison between the performance of Polish pilots in the BoB and American pilots in Burma is rather interesting.

Polish pilots had weeks to familiarize themselves with the Hurricane, yet very few pilots and planes were lost during training.

Despite the fact that several AVG pilots had been flying instructors and most of the others were experienced pilots, several with more than 1,000 flying hours, AVG pilots damaged or totalled dozens of P-40 and several pilots died in accidents and several pilots received clerical jobs with pilot's salary when they refused to fight. A single pilot wrecked 3 of the invaluable P-40s during training.

Despite the AVG receiving U$ 500 bonuses for about 400 planes destroyed, according to Daniel Ford's book the Japanese only lost about 112 planes in the whole Burma campaign (lost operating from Thailand, Indochina and Burma against the AVG and RAF) and many of those were destroyed by British pilots.

So AVG pilots probably destroyed about 75 Japanese planes, mostly dated bombers, Recce planes and fixed gear Ki-27 and became quite wealthy and famous. Many quit when the USAAF took over the AVG, so they spent a few months in combat.

In contrast Polish pilots always had a low salary, had to fight Bf 109 with lousy planes in Poland, Caudrons in France and Hurricanes in the BoB and continue fighting for years and achieved the highest ratio of kills to losses in the BoB (better than Spitfire squadrons) and people hardly know about them.

One of the most interesting aspects of US help to China in WW II is the fact that while Curtiss had to invest a fortune in machnery, technology, materials, personnel, etc, and was allowed to make only a 10% profit, Pawley (its agent in China) expected a 10% commission on the 100 P-40 which China received and refused to assemble the first plane (with an additional profit) until he received his U$ 450,000 sales commision (a fortune at the time for selling planes to a country begging for them). Luckily, the bastard settled for only U$ 250,000 and started assembly.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Jul 15 at 15:00..
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09 Jul 15, 15:37
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,428
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Subject Index: RAF Squadrons, Second World War: Nos.1-99

http://www.historyofwar.org/subject_RAF_units.html
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09 Jul 15, 16:43
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Just to illustrate how critical time was for the Japanese in Burma. The Monsoon started on 12 May. By which time RAF and the AVG had left Burma and the allied army was beaten.

The British were very lucky that the Japanese took for granted that they were going to defend Rangoon and removed the road block that allowed Alexander to escape with the bulk of the army. Otherwise it would have been an even greater fiasco.

Critical Moulmein airfield fell on 30 January, just 2 weeks after advancing into Burma from Thailand.

The Japanese occupied the Andaman Islands in late March 1942 (the British had evacuated) and debarked 2 divisions in Rangoon to assist the invasion force. Where was the RN?

In comparison to invading Malaya, Burma, Sumatra or Java, Ceylon is a small piece of cake and it would leave Burma and India isolated.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09 Jul 15, 23:03
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Chenault must have been a little upset when months after Roosevelt wasted 16 B-25, they finally sent him 6 B-25s from India, but instead of sending them straight to China, Brereton sent them on a detour and loaded to bomb Lashio on the way and 4 crashed after running out of fuel and Ki-27s shot dead a crewman of the 2 planes which did arrive.
Allied commanders (other than Chenault) were the IJA's best asset in 1941-42.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10 Jul 15, 18:31
Nebfer's Avatar
Nebfer Nebfer is offline
Captain
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Titusville
Posts: 783
Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99] Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99] Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99] Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99] Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99] Nebfer is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Chenault must have been a little upset when months after Roosevelt wasted 16 B-25, they finally sent him 6 B-25s from India, but instead of sending them straight to China, Brereton sent them on a detour and loaded to bomb Lashio on the way and 4 crashed after running out of fuel and Ki-27s shot dead a crewman of the 2 planes which did arrive.
Allied commanders (other than Chenault) were the IJA's best asset in 1941-42.
You do know that Roosevelt practically had nothing to do with said raid. Even then part of the plan was to land them in China and refuel them so they can continue on to other bases in the area so that they can be used on other missions right? But that bit fell through at the last moments, due to being detected a bit further out than planed and the onset of night and bad weather, so that many had to ditch or crash land.

Yeah and it's not like the Axis didn't due silly things like that either.... So you can not knock one with out knocking the other...
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11 Jul 15, 00:37
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Roosevelt's obsession with bombing Japan was the only reason the absurd plan was conceived an executed.

Chenault was left completely out of it. It made a lot more sense to send the planes through Africa to China and use them repeatedly to bomb Japan with incendiary bombs, as proposed by Chiang's brother and Chenault in a meeting and rejected by Marshall. As stated, US brass (other than Chenault) was Japan's biggest asset. The CVs should have been sent to the Coral Sea to kick butt (sink Zuikaku and Shokaku, save Lex and get fighting experience) there and in Midway.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 11 Jul 15, 10:49
BobTheBarbarian's Avatar
BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
Colonel
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,956
BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Roosevelt's obsession with bombing Japan was the only reason the absurd plan was conceived an executed.

Chenault was left completely out of it. It made a lot more sense to send the planes through Africa to China and use them repeatedly to bomb Japan with incendiary bombs, as proposed by Chiang's brother and Chenault in a meeting and rejected by Marshall. As stated, US brass (other than Chenault) was Japan's biggest asset. The CVs should have been sent to the Coral Sea to kick butt (sink Zuikaku and Shokaku, save Lex and get fighting experience) there and in Midway.
The Doolittle Raid was necessary for morale to show that the Japanese were not invincible and that they could be touched. It was a harbinger of things to come. It also played a part in Yamamoto's conceiving of the Midway Operation to finally squash the US carriers once and for all. We all know how that turned out.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11 Jul 15, 13:30
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Setting fire to a dozen Japanese paper cities in a week with repeated B-25 raids and sinking Zuikaku and Shokaku would have done a lot more for morale than dropping a few bombs and losing all the B-25s and Lexington.

Idiots rely on propaganda to create false achievements. Good leaders destroy the enemy and need no false propaganda.

Roosevelt's propaganda stunt cost a quarter million Chinese civilians their lives in reprisals for aiding the aviators to escape and sank Lex. Doolittle himself (another of the few good US leaders) could have been easily lost.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11 Jul 15, 13:53
BobTheBarbarian's Avatar
BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
Colonel
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,956
BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Setting fire to a dozen Japanese paper cities in a week with repeated B-25 raids and sinking Zuikaku and Shokaku would have done a lot more for morale than dropping a few bombs and losing all the B-25s and Lexington.
Wouldn't have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Idiots rely on propaganda to create false achievements. Good leaders destroy the enemy and need no false propaganda.
"Idiots," huh? You think you're smarter than them?

Troll.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11 Jul 15, 14:09
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
What wouln't have happened?

Shokaku was 85% sunk and survived by miracle a few more bombs or a torpedo from Enterprise or Hornet would have finished her off.

Zuikaku had practically no planes left and did not stand a chance in hell against 4 CVs.

B-25s can easily bomb Japanese cities with light incendiary bombs from China. The Japanese had no radar and few fighters (they only deployed a large force after the absurd Doolittle raid). Even after they flew in fighters, they could do little against night raids.
16 B-25 would have wreaked havoc in a week and then been extremely useful bombing IJAAF bases with fragmentation bombs, escorted by P-40s, instead of the latter having to strafe alone enemy planes.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11 Jul 15, 14:42
BobTheBarbarian's Avatar
BobTheBarbarian BobTheBarbarian is offline
Colonel
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,956
BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200] BobTheBarbarian is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
What wouln't have happened?
Most of what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Shokaku was 85% sunk and survived by miracle a few more bombs or a torpedo from Enterprise or Hornet would have finished her off.
Enterprise and Hornet weren't at Coral Sea. The US carrier force there was too battered to do much of anything. Also, Shokaku, though heavily damaged, did not "miraculously" survive. She sailed back to Kure under her own power at high speed.

Even if the Doolittle Raid was canceled in favor or hurling all of America's carriers at the Japs in Coral Sea, the consequences would have hurt big time in the future. Even if Sho and Zui were sunk (and that's a big 'if,' they might have disengaged in the face of superior numbers), the US carrier fleet would have sustained even heavier damage and lost an even greater number of aircraft than they did historically. They wouldn't have been in fighting shape for the Battle of Midway. The US might have turned Coral Sea from a defeat to a victory, but would have paid the price at Midway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Zuikaku had practically no planes left and did not stand a chance in hell against 4 CVs.
Source? The Japanese won the battle. US air losses were about as heavy, Lexington was sunk and Yorktown heavily damaged. Fuel was also a consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
B-25s can easily bomb Japanese cities with light incendiary bombs from China. The Japanese had no radar and few fighters (they only deployed a large force after the absurd Doolittle raid). Even after they flew in fighters, they could do little against night raids.
16 B-25 would have wreaked havoc in a week and then been extremely useful bombing IJAAF bases with fragmentation bombs, escorted by P-40s, instead of the latter having to strafe alone enemy planes.
Source?

16 B-25 weren't going to do squat against a major target. It took hundreds of B-29s in massed formations to produce real results.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:19.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.