HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

Notices and Announcements

Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08 Jul 15, 13:51
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 21,076
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
Here's a question what would of happened if Force Z was not sunk in early December but manages to avoid detection (largely due to IJN submarines not being present or perhaps missing the mark)?
That's interesting.

Used aggressively it could serious upset IJN logistics shipping into the region.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08 Jul 15, 14:02
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Much better P-40Fs were being assembled to fly from W Africa to Burma. Had these arrived in a steady stream, they would have been far more useful than the few battered, dated P-40s in Burma.
BS. Of the 150 P-40F initially to be supplied to the RAF less than 25 actually got used by them. 100 were diverted to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease and of the remaining 50 most were taken over by the USAAF.
Deliveries to the ME had barely begun when the US entered the war.


Quote:
RAF's deblacle in Malaya, the DEI and Burma occurred only because a large number of Hurricanes arrived weeks too late in the front, many were not assembled and captured crated in Singapore and those arriving in the DEI by carrier were destroyed piecemeal. Only after Malaya, the PI and DEI had collapsed did RAF and the uSAAF try to reinforce Burma considerably and the loss of those 18 planes and the Indian division were a godsent for the IJA.
The RAF's, and for that matter AVG and Chinese Air Force debacle in Burma was due to a lack of facilities and support coupled with a large percentage of the pilots being novices in flying.
Your focus on these 18 Hurricanes is also a disservice to the other aircraft on the Burma front and to the efforts of many to get aircraft into service under difficult conditions.

Quote:
It is most interesting that of the 99 P-40 assembled in Burma and the 60 original pilots of the AVG most were lost to accidents, engine malfunction, destroyed on the ground or while strafing. They did rather well in air combat, since they faced mostly bombers and Ki-27 and only a few Ki-43 (the latter mostly near the end of the Burma campaign).
It is also typical of you to know nothing but the most superficial information on something.

I'll digress for a minute.

Everyone remember when Draco went on about the Germans building herds of Hs 123 in China. Well, here's proof his idea was completely, insanely, wrong and wouldn't have happened.

There was actually a Chinese based manufacturer of Aircraft. This was the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO) set up American businessman William D. Pawley and partially funded by the US government. The firm started in 1934 (before the Luftwaffe existed) at Hangzhou China. It built Hawk II and III biplane fighters from kits supplied from America.
In early 1937 the factory was overrun by the Japanese and moved to Hankou where it operated until October 1938, again being taken by the Japanese.
It then moved to Hengyang. By the end of 1938 it had assembled about 50 to 100 aircraft of one sort or another (Hawk biplanes, Vultee dive bombers, 1 Hawk 75A-5, and a few other aircraft). The exact number of planes delivered isn't fully known. It also spent more and more time repairing and maintaining existing aircraft than assembling new ones (all from supplied kits and parts from the US).
CAMCO also operated subsidiary plants at Toungo (Mingaladon Airport) and at Leiyun Burma. The Toungo plant assembled 99 kitted P-40B and C Tomahawks for the AVG.
The Leiyun plant assembled a few kitted Hawk 75A-5 that had been supplied earlier and moved with the Chinese plant along with a handful of CW-21B Demons. It also assembled 25 Vultee V-12 light bombers.
The plant was heavily bombed in mid 1941 ending production.
Both plants operated to about 10/41 when they started moving, along with the Chinese plant to Bangalore India where the company became known as the Hindustan Aircraft Company.
This firm assembled about 5 Hawk 75A-5 from kits along with a few other aircraft before becoming a maintenance and repair facility.
That's all by a US based company that has far more resources available to it than the Germans / Henschel would have had.


The RAF also had operating in the CBI theater:
Number 5 squadron (from 3/42) with Hawk 75A-5 (Mohawk IV)
Number 146 squadron (3/42 - 4/42) that turned their Hawk 75's over to No. 5 Sqdn.
Number 155 squadron (7/42 to 1/44) with Mohawk IV


Quote:
OTL the IJAAF had to stop temporarily after capturing Rangoon since they had run out of drop tanks and had to rotate many damaged squadrons.
In this scenario it would have suffered heavier losses and run ut of drop tanks before taking Rangoon, providing a respite to reinforce Burma.
The IJAAF suffered the same sort of problems the Allies did in keeping aircraft flying. The difference was they could fly in new planes to replace ones out of service. The Allies couldn't.
The Allies also tried much harder than the Japanese to prevent wastage of their aircraft (not always succeeding). So, often it was just a small number of Japanese planes operating under conditions that were not sustainable with heavy operational losses in aircraft, if not pilots.


Quote:
RAF also left plenty of fuel in several airfields, which the Japanese used well. The longer RAF fought, the less fuel Japan would capture and the more planes the IJAAF would lose.
Source or shut up.


Quote:
The simply fact that nextdoor to India RAF used Lysanders as bombers and Chenault used Soviet SB bombers in 1942 illustrates the extremely poor use of huge resources.
The RAF / IAF used a number of types actually from 12/41 to about 6/42:

(by squadron)

1 Lysander
2 Lysander
20 Blenheim I and Lysander
31 Vickers Valentia I transports
28 Lysander
60 Blenheim I
67 Buffalo I (to 2/42 then to 488 RNZAF)

among other units.
As a light ground attack aircraft the Lysander was no worse than the IJAAF equivalent, the Mitsubishi Ki 51 (Sonia) or the earlier Ki 30 (Ann).
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08 Jul 15, 14:11
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 21,076
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Brilliant post, TAG.

Yeah, the China aviation superpower theory, classic Draco.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08 Jul 15, 14:28
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Ty. I do try to add a bit of useful historical information to these threads. It is kind of neat to have to research some obscure topic. I'm often surprised what I find.

http://www.earlyaviators.com/earngeof.htm

A site with a few photos of the Chinese plant.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08 Jul 15, 16:13
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,219
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The allies used Lysanders to bomb airfields and 6 B-17s to evacuate from Burma to India. Rather brilliant use of resources.
You have a source for this?
I don't recall any B-17 being in Burma at the time (and they likely would have been the "C" or "D" models at best.)
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 08 Jul 15, 16:20
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
TAG
You read a page and claim to be an expert.
Mingaladon is in Rangoon, very far from Toungoo.
Read at least Daniel Ford's elementary "Flying Tigers" you'll get an idea of the lousy USAAF and USN pilots' quality (which You claim to be non plus ultra) and the inncompetent allied leadership troughout the Burma campaign in 1941-42. You read also about how stupidly the allies supplied airfields, fuel, etc, throughout Burma. The Japanese even captured fuel from the Chinese near Lashio.
Although most westerners think poorly of the Chinese troops, the IJA considered the Chinese defense in NE Burma the only decent resistance that they encountered throughout SE Asia.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Jul 15 at 16:34..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08 Jul 15, 16:26
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
You have a source for this?
I don't recall any B-17 being in Burma at the time (and they likely would have been the "C" or "D" models at best.)
Bissel had 6 B-17 in India, which were used only to evacuate. I read about that and the Lysanders used to carry 250 lb bombs in their racks for 25 lb bomb in the Flying Tigers mentioned above or in "The Burma Road".

Interestingly, the Japanese deployed tanks in Burma against the Chinese, but not against the Commonwealth, which withdrew so fast, the tanks didn't have time to attack.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08 Jul 15, 16:41
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
TAG
You read a page and claim to be an expert.
Mingaladon is in Rangoon, very far from Toungoo.
Look at a map. Toungo is district of Rangoon and the aforementioned airfield is in Rangoon..

Quote:
Read at least Daniel Ford's elementary "Flying Tigers" you'll get an idea of the lousy USAAF and USN pilots' quality (which You claim to be non plus ultra) and the inncompetent allied leadership troughout the Burma campaign in 1941-42. You read also about how stupidly the allied supplied airfields, fuel, etc, throughout Burma. The Japanese even captured fuel from the Chinese near Lashio.
I already know about the iffy quality of many Allied pilots. What has that got to do with the availability of aircraft?
As for "...stupidly the allied supplied airfields, fuel," the Allies were trying to supply those fields from half-way around the planet. The Japanese had just as much difficulty and that has been demonstrated to you in other threads conclusively.
So, claiming one side in that campaign was "stupid" while the other side committed the same errors says your claim is largely baseless. Instead, both sides faced severe difficulties supplying their air forces in Burma in 1941 - 42.

The difference is that by 1943 -44 the Japanese situation hadn't improved much, if at all, while the Allied one had improved tremendously. The Allies systematically set up well built airfields, and then supplied them properly while the Japanese continued to operate on a shoestring.

Quote:
Although most westerners think poorly of the Chinese troops, the IJA considered the Chinese defense in NW Burma the only decent resistance that they encountered in throughout SE Asia.
Most Chinese formations were poor. US led and equipped ones did well, as did a few Nationalist and Communist ones.
As for early Allied defense, they chose to withdraw rather than try and defend a largely indefensible position following the axiom "Never reinforce defeat."

The Japanese continued to grab ground but in the long run found that their forces had so badly outrun their supply lines they couldn't continue. Pressing issues in other theaters left the CBI a backwater where the Japanese couldn't advance nor could the Allies until 1944 when resources were freed up. Then they crushed the Japanese.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 08 Jul 15 at 20:29..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08 Jul 15, 16:53
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Bissel had 6 B-17 in India, which were used only to evacuate. I read about that and the Lysanders used to carry 250 lb bombs in their racks for 25 lb bomb in the Flying Tigers mentioned above or in "The Burma Road".
Actually, the 7th Bombardment Group moved to Karachi in early 1942, most of their remaining B-17E were handed off to groups in Australia. The 9th Bombardment Squadron having the remaining B-17E's in the group flew missions against targets in Burma sporadically and were used to fly in troops and evacuate wounded on occasion.

The bombardment group re-equipped with B-25 and B-24 aircraft starting in mid 1942. The B-17 was phased out of service in the CBI and Pacific in favor of the B-24 with longer range.

Quote:
Interestingly, the Japanese deployed tanks in Burma against the Chinese, but not against the Commonwealth, which withdrew so fast, the tanks didn't have time to attack.
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/bde/7thAB1942.htm

Puts lie to your comments.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08 Jul 15, 17:19
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,219
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
A start for general reference, the Wiki page on the Burma campaign;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08 Jul 15, 20:34
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
TAG
282 km between Toungoo & Rangoon.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08 Jul 15, 20:51
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
TAG
282 km between Toungoo & Rangoon.
Toungo also is a district in Rangoon. The modern Airport is in it. It isn't the town to the north that was mentioned.

Quote:
CAMCO also operated subsidiary plants at Toungo (Mingaladon Airport)
From my original post. Note the part where the airport is mentioned.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 08 Jul 15 at 22:03.. Reason: added quote and commentary.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09 Jul 15, 04:24
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,219
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
On 3 Feb, 1942 18 Hurricanes (which ahd flown over 3,000 mile from Africa) led by a Blenheim left Dum Dum in Calcutta heading for Rangoon. Unfortunately, the fighters lost contact of the bomber navigating for them and were lost.

The Japanese advanced rapidly into peninsular Burma capturing airfields, so RAF ordered an attack. Although the Japanese at the time had no trucks in Burma, allied pilots didn't know that and assumed that a truck column was Japanese and attacked it. Unfortunately it was the Indian division, which had been bombed and strafed by IJAAF planes in the morning. The attack not only caused many casualties but greatly impaired the divisions mobility and cohesion (mules took of with the radios, etc,). Moreover, a P-40 and a few British planes were lost strafing the friendly column, a terrible waste of urgently needed planes.

The IJAAF had suffered very few losses invading Malaya, the PI and DEI, but was losing planes rapidly in Burma. The Japanese had mostly bombers and Ki-27 operating from Thailand and then from captured airfields in peninsular Burma (interestingly, they built rather fast a 400 km truck road in difficult terrain from Thailand to Moulmein, where they captured fuel that helped their offensive into Rangoon). Although 18 fighters seem to make little difference, together with the Hurricane squadrons which did arrive (135th, 136th, etc,), the few Buffalo and the Flying Tigers they could have played a major role.
Although Britain and the US were producing impressive amounts of excellent planes. The allies in Burma were so desperate that they had to use Lysanders with 250 lb bombs to bomb Japanese airfields, Soviet SB bombers, Blenheims, Buffalo, etc, So the Hurricanes and P-40s were the best planes in Burma. Alas, they were available in small numbers and suffered heavy losses, both on the ground and in the air to frequent Japanese raids, which often included fighter sweeps by 20 or more Ki-27.

In this scenario, the 18 Hurricanes arrive in Rangoon and RAF does not attack land forces in order to avoid friendly fire and losing invaluable fighters.

Instead of half of the Indian division being trapped when the bridge is damaged by the Indian engineers (owing to the chaos and impaired mobility resulting from friendly fire)), the whole Indian division retreats over the bridge with all its equipment.



The
We are leaping in here at a point 2 - 2 1/2months into the conflict with little thought given to the context of the Burma situation as of Dec. 7-8,1941 and the weeks~months there after.

On Dec. 7-8,1941 UK RAF resources in Burma amounted to two squadrons of (USA) Buffalo fighters (#17 & 67) and one of Blenheim bombers (#60). Over half of those Blenheims were in Singapore at time of Japan entering the War, as that was where they could do "live ammo" training, being prohibited from such in Burma.

The American Volunteer Group(Flying Tigers) were only in Burma because Rangoon was the unload point and arrangement had been made with the UK toi use a couple of bases in Burma to assemble the P-40s and train the pilots of the AVG. At the time of the Pearl Harbor attack/Japanese entry into WWII, the AVG was now the "First AVG(Pursuit/fighter)", with the "Second AVG(Bombardment)" recruited and portions enroute to China. The personnel of 2ndAVG were diverted to Australia post "Pearl Harbor" and 'inducted' into the USAAF, the @ 33 A-29 Hudson aircraft moved on to East Africa/Eygpt depots for use in the MTO eventually, and the @33 A-20/Bostons stateside were absorbed into the USAAF there. The 3rd AVG(Pursuit) never formed, but aircraft intended for it eventually found their way to the CBI, mostly to the Chinese AF.

The OP starts "mid-battle" with no context of initial conditions and "scrabble to cob together" developments leading up to the Feb.1942 events it presents. Without due consideration of this 'backstory', the proposition presented in the OP has little foundation for merit.

The RAF would eventual deploy at least 120 Hurricanes to Burma, with about 109 lost to operations, accident, combat, and Jap bombings. (Squadrons 28, 135, 136 at least)

The 1st AVG's combat~blood-draw against the Japanese would be about Dec. 20,1941 in Kunming, China against attacking IJA bombers. The next few months would find the 'Tigers' split between defending China (what they were formed and hired to do) and covering tracks of the Allied withdraw out of Burma.

At lot more to detail, but all much more key to the situation by Feb. 1942 than some lost fighters and lethal friendly fire upon an Allied division. Mind, either and both were major set-backs and possibily avoidable, but neither would have been the "game changers" suggested by the OP.

Too much invested politically, logistically, and operationally by this point in time for such to have made a significant impact on future course of events.
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09 Jul 15, 11:12
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
I have the liberty to start the thread at any point in time. Without referring back to when Chenault started fighting in China before Hitler invaded Poland or Dec 1941.

Your's is the typical, accepted view that the Japanese were invincible and Burma was lost merely because it was a secondary theater.

Burma was lost only because the considerable allied resources were used in the worst possible way, so that a weak airforce with mostly Ki-27 and light bombers and a few Sallies and Ki-43 (all of them flammable) and a weak army advanced over extremely defensible terrain very fast. In great part thanks to allied airfields, fuel, etc, Rommel all over again, but in much more defensible terrain and against a much less efficient IJA.

Burma fell thanks to allied incompetence much more than because of Japanese strength or ability.

There were 3 airfields far apart in peninsular Burma. They were exposed to the IJAAF and IJA a few miles across the border in Thailand, had weak air and land forces (border police) and were promptly captured with fuel, etc, The northernmost one, Moulmein was very close to Rangoon.
It is quite surprising that after years of war the British had perfected the art of evacuation but not of scorched earth and had not learnt that without a strong air force, it was better to evacuate before the enemy arrived.

The IJA mobile division arrrived in Lashio and then a regiment arrived close to China thanks in part to 400 captured vehicles from Singapore and to captured fuel from the British and then the Chinese.

It is rather amazing that a few Japanese with lousy armament and planes managed to rapidly expel the allies from Burma, despite the large number of Hurricanes and P-40s, millions of Indians and Chinese. thousands of trucks, jeeps and fieldguns, hundreds of tanks, etc,

4 weak Japanese columns penetrated Burma at breakneck pace and defeated over 200,000 allied troops, 400 tanks, etc,

The B-17s were used only to evacuate and performed their first and quite successful bombing of an airfield on 5 May, 1942, when Burma was already lost. In contrast, the Lysanders performed several bombing missions at the critical time!

You forgot to mention the 15th and 17th Hurricane squadrons.

Again, the allies shot themselves in the foot when they wasted 18 urgently needed Hurricanes on 3 Feb, when they yielded airfields with fuel, etc, in peninsular Burma (defended by policemen) and when they strafed and stranded half the Indian division and especially when they yielded extremely defensible terrain without a fight.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Jul 15 at 11:26..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09 Jul 15, 11:39
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,386
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The B-17s were used only to evacuate and performed their first and quite successful bombing of an airfield on 5 May, 1942, when Burma was already lost. In contrast, the Lysanders performed several bombing missions at the critical time!
Again, you are wrong. The 7th BG had a mix of B-17E and LB-30 aircraft. The later is the transport version of the B-24 Liberator.
The 9th BS was equipped with B-17E and arrived in India (Karachi) 16 March 1942. The squadron spent about a month refurbishing their aircraft and getting new planes flown in via Brazil and across Africa to replace losses they took in Java. When they arrived at Karachi there were no munitions or ground services so the whole group and its ground echelon had to construct these from local materials and await delivery of things like ammunition and bombs.
So, it makes perfect sense that the squadron wouldn't bomb targets until May. In the interim, the group's LB-30 transports flew transport missions. That too seems reasonable.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:16.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.