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  #1  
Old 01 Jul 15, 12:56
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Belgium does not secede from The Netherlands.

The secession of Belgium resulted in 2 small, weak countries, which had to support 2 governments, sets of ambassies and armed forces and could be attacked separately and defeated easily. The resources of the DEI benefitted only a small population and migration of Europeans to the huge area was rather limited.

Ironically, the countries which forced the Netherlands to eventually recognize Belgian independence through the London conference of 1830 and the Belgians themselves were those who suffered the most from the break up of a great nation into 2 weaklings.

Assuming that the British, Austrians, Frenchmen and Russians are a bit smarter during the London Conference and realize that a united Netherlands is a much better buffer between France and the rest of Europe and Belgium never secedes, not only the history of the 2 countries and their colonies is much different, also the history of Europe, Africa and Asia.

Last edited by Draco; 01 Jul 15 at 13:02..
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  #2  
Old 01 Jul 15, 13:04
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Actually, they would need to be dumber to keep the area united. France needed no buffer in the 1830s, and since a united Germany did not exist in 1830.

The v1830 decision was a compromise, as such things usually are.
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  #3  
Old 01 Jul 15, 13:22
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France, Britain, Russia and Austria needed a strong buffer against each other.

For example Flanders and England had helped each other considerably against Spain when it was extremely strong.

England, Austria and Russia risked having France become stronger by invading Wallonia much more easily when they separated it from the Netherlands.

France, Austria and Russia made the RN stronger by weakening the Dutch navy through the loss of Belgium.
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Old 01 Jul 15, 13:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
France, Britain, Russia and Austria needed a strong buffer against each other.

For example Flanders and England had helped each other considerably against Spain when it was extremely strong.

England, Austria and Russia risked having France become stronger by invading Wallonia much more easily when they separated it from the Netherlands.

France, Austria and Russia made the RN stronger by weakening the Dutch navy through the loss of Belgium.
Nonsense.
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  #5  
Old 01 Jul 15, 15:18
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The much stronger, more populated Netherlands sends more settlers to S Africa and the DEI. Since there is no king Leopold to venture in the Congo, the DEI and S Africa thrive.
The Netherlands, Prussia and Austria thrive during the Crimean war, while the French, Russian, Turkish and British economies suffer.

In 1870 the Dutch navy is so large and modern as the French navy and by 1880 it is larger, second only to the RN.
Greater S Africa has over a million Dutch settlers and is protected by the strong Dutch navy. So when Gold and diamonds begin to be exploited and more settlers rush in and Britain tries to take over, not only is the British army trounced but also the RN. British shipping has difficulty accessing India, Australia, Malaya, Burma, Rhodesia, Kenya, etc, around S Africa during the war, so as the losses mount Britain soon resigns itself to abandoning S Africa to the Dutch.

When oil, rubber, nickel, rice, tropical woods, etc, begin to be exploited in the DEI and gold, diamonds, chromium, coal, etc, in S Africa, the Netherlands expands its fleet further, nearly equaling the RN.
The fleet in the DEI and S Africa is stronger than the RN fleet in the East.
When the British begin to help the IJN to rapidly expand and modernize in the late 19th century, the Dutch respond by helping the Chinese, Spanish and Russian navies in the Pacific to modernize and signing alliances with them and with French Indochina and Tailand in 1897. In order to check Japanese, British and American expansion in the E.
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  #6  
Old 01 Jul 15, 19:10
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The Dutch would, like the French and Germans have to begin to focus on being a land power first, naval power second.
Britain would actually benefit most from a three-way division of power on the continent. Germany, Holland, and France would end up rivals of one sort or another trying to ally with Russia and Britain.
Britain would be in a stronger position to be a sea power with less interest in the in fighting between continental powers.

If Holland chooses to be a sea power then all Britain has to do is establish ties with the Germans and keep the French neutral. Holland is defeated at home and loses their overseas possessions.

Or, Holland as a sea power is rivaled by France and Britain in collusion. Britain defeats Holland at sea while France overruns the country on land.

Or, Germany and France, or Germany and Russia rival Holland as a sea power. The Germans overrun Holland and Holland's sea power proves worthless.

Anyway you slice it Holland has to become a land power to survive and that means giving up sea power because they cannot afford both.
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  #7  
Old 01 Jul 15, 20:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The much stronger, more populated Netherlands sends more settlers to S Africa and the DEI. Since there is no king Leopold to venture in the Congo, the DEI and S Africa thrive.
The Netherlands, Prussia and Austria thrive during the Crimean war, while the French, Russian, Turkish and British economies suffer.

In 1870 the Dutch navy is so large and modern as the French navy and by 1880 it is larger, second only to the RN.
Greater S Africa has over a million Dutch settlers and is protected by the strong Dutch navy. So when Gold and diamonds begin to be exploited and more settlers rush in and Britain tries to take over, not only is the British army trounced but also the RN. British shipping has difficulty accessing India, Australia, Malaya, Burma, Rhodesia, Kenya, etc, around S Africa during the war, so as the losses mount Britain soon resigns itself to abandoning S Africa to the Dutch.

When oil, rubber, nickel, rice, tropical woods, etc, begin to be exploited in the DEI and gold, diamonds, chromium, coal, etc, in S Africa, the Netherlands expands its fleet further, nearly equaling the RN.
The fleet in the DEI and S Africa is stronger than the RN fleet in the East.
When the British begin to help the IJN to rapidly expand and modernize in the late 19th century, the Dutch respond by helping the Chinese, Spanish and Russian navies in the Pacific to modernize and signing alliances with them and with French Indochina and Tailand in 1897. In order to check Japanese, British and American expansion in the E.
The United Netherlands that you describe was a result of the Treaty of Vienna (1815) and thus only lasted a couple of decades.

Prior to that, the territory of what is now Belgium was never an integral part of an independent Kingdom of Holland but was dominated by Spain, the Austrians under the auspices of the Holy Roman Empire, and then the French (while the Netherlands itself became briefly the Batavian Republic).

Even granted a union of the Dutch and Belgium Empires, the resultant power would have lacked the industrial muscle or population to match the British Empire during the nineteenth century in the way fondly envisaged.
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  #8  
Old 02 Jul 15, 00:06
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Despite secession, Belgian industry developed the first RR system in continental Europe and exported RR equipment to many countries.
The Belgian armament industry also thrived.

Talking about armament, it is interesting that in the battle of Isandlwana in 1879 the British were trounced by a hoard of lance wielding Africans with leather shields.
Although the US army had used very portable, 42 mm, quick firing, Hotchkiss guns against the Indians quite successfully in 1877 and 79, the British used clumsy, muzzle loading 3" rifles in Isandlwana. In that battle the British used single shot Martini-Henry rifles, whereas the Sioux defeated Custer 3 years before with 16 shot Henry rifles (used in small numbers in the civil war). In 1877 the Turks used Winchester rifles (much better than the Herny) to repel the Russians in Plevna.

Last edited by Draco; 02 Jul 15 at 01:19..
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Old 02 Jul 15, 00:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Despite secession, Belgian industry developed the first RR system in continental Europe and exported RR equipment to many countries.
The Belgian armament industry also thrived.

Talking about armament, it is interesting that in the battle of Isandlwana in 1879 the British were trounced by a hoard of lance wielding Africans with leather shields.
Although the US army had used very portable, 42 mm, quick firing, Hotchkiss guns against the Indians quite successfully in 1877 and 79, the British used clumsy, muzzle loading 3" rifles in Isandlwana. In that battle the British used single shot Martini-Henry rifles, whereas the Sioux defeated Custer 3 years before with 16 shot Henry rifles (used in small numbers in the civil war). In 1977 the Turks used Winchester rifles (much better than the Herny) to repel the Russians in Plevna.
All of enormous relevance to the secession of Belgium!

In 1977 the Turks used Winchester rifles (much better than the Herny) to repel the Russians in Plevna.

I must confess I missed that one. Probably was watching the late night snooker on television instead.
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  #10  
Old 02 Jul 15, 00:49
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Quote:
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All of enormous relevance to the secession of Belgium!

In 1977 the Turks used Winchester rifles (much better than the Herny) to repel the Russians in Plevna.

I must confess I missed that one. Probably was watching the late night snooker on television instead.
And, of course, the Russians in Czarist Russia used Berdan rifles for decades (approx. 1868 to 1890). Those were designed by an American, Hiram Berdan who was a renowned marksman. He also invented a new design "gold amalgamator" that made him rich.

I just thought while we are on irrelevant facts of absolutely no use to this thread I'd mention that...
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Old 02 Jul 15, 01:28
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But they are quite relevant. OTL the British were trounced by the weak Boers in 1881. As stated above, a much stronger and more populous Netherlands result in more migration to S Africa and the DEI and a much stronger Dutch industry produces similar weapons to the French Hotchkiss and shot rifles and MGs, so that the Boers with much better tactics, strategy, mobility and weapons and with naval support trounce Britain also in the 2nd Boer war.
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Old 02 Jul 15, 01:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
But they are quite relevant. OTL the British were trounced by the weak Boers in 1881. As stated above, a much stronger and more populous Netherlands result in more migration to S Africa and the DEI and a much stronger Dutch industry produces similar weapons to the French Hotchkiss and shot rifles and MGs, so that the Boers with much better tactics, strategy, mobility and weapons and with naval support trounce Britain also in the 2nd Boer war.
Silly me... I thought the British won the Boer War...
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Old 02 Jul 15, 03:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The much stronger, more populated Netherlands sends more settlers to S Africa and the DEI. Since there is no king Leopold to venture in the Congo, the DEI and S Africa thrive.
The Netherlands, Prussia and Austria thrive during the Crimean war, while the French, Russian, Turkish and British economies suffer.

In 1870 the Dutch navy is so large and modern as the French navy and by 1880 it is larger, second only to the RN.
Greater S Africa has over a million Dutch settlers and is protected by the strong Dutch navy. So when Gold and diamonds begin to be exploited and more settlers rush in and Britain tries to take over, not only is the British army trounced but also the RN. British shipping has difficulty accessing India, Australia, Malaya, Burma, Rhodesia, Kenya, etc, around S Africa during the war, so as the losses mount Britain soon resigns itself to abandoning S Africa to the Dutch.

When oil, rubber, nickel, rice, tropical woods, etc, begin to be exploited in the DEI and gold, diamonds, chromium, coal, etc, in S Africa, the Netherlands expands its fleet further, nearly equaling the RN.
The fleet in the DEI and S Africa is stronger than the RN fleet in the East.
When the British begin to help the IJN to rapidly expand and modernize in the late 19th century, the Dutch respond by helping the Chinese, Spanish and Russian navies in the Pacific to modernize and signing alliances with them and with French Indochina and Tailand in 1897. In order to check Japanese, British and American expansion in the E.
Nonsense : there was no significant Dutch emigration to SA and the DEI in the OTL and it also would not happen if Belgium had not seceded in 1830 .

In the 19th century 6600 Dutch emigrated to SA and 16000 to the DEI.

In 1899 there were 11000 Dutch civilians living in DEI and 4700 in SA .

The Dutch emigration was centered on the US (Michigan) :140000 and Germany : 117000
Source : Academia.edu/1148475/ Komen en gaan.Immigratie en emigratie in Nederland vanaf 1550. P 101

Last edited by ljadw; 02 Jul 15 at 03:35..
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Old 02 Jul 15, 09:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
But they are quite relevant. OTL the British were trounced by the weak Boers in 1881. As stated above, a much stronger and more populous Netherlands result in more migration to S Africa and the DEI and a much stronger Dutch industry produces similar weapons to the French Hotchkiss and shot rifles and MGs, so that the Boers with much better tactics, strategy, mobility and weapons and with naval support trounce Britain also in the 2nd Boer war.
I,for one, get the impression that you just like to imagine Britain "trounced" and delight in concocting far-fetched scenarios that might have brought that eventuality about.

For a change ,how about using your fertile imagination and coming up with a scenario where the British actually win ?

(And the one quality the Boer Commandoes had in both the Transvaal War and 2nd South African War was mobility ,their most effective trait).
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Old 02 Jul 15, 09:18
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Nothing short but full military occupation by a third nation could keep Belgium as it has existed since 1830 united with Holland.

The divisions in culture and mentality dating back to the 16th century run too deep, the differences in size, population and military power are too small.

Belgium itself was already an implemented union - to add the protestant north to it would destabilize the whole - to the point of becoming ungovernable.
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