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  #16  
Old 21 Jun 15, 21:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The problem is it was never used operationally. The Japanese didn't attempt night time torpedo attacks using carrier aircraft. A big reason for that was the inability of the planes to operate from carriers at night.
Well Now TA the IJN where capable of doing Night operations, in fact IIRC, Genda's original plan did call for the attack to reach PH by 6 am (2 hours earlier than historical). But Nagumo over ruled it due to the fact that 5th carrier division (Zuikaku and Shokaku) was not yet certified in Night operations.
He also wanted invasions to take place later that day as well...

The IJN had have a landing aid called chakkan shidoto (Landing Guidance Light), which could be used both day and night.

The IJN on their 4 carriers had 40 Night capable bomber crews.
Quote:
Even the onset of darkness had been accounted for. The Japanese
had trained night torpedo-bombing teams on the veteran carriers Akagi,
Kaga, Sōryū, and Hiryū; twelve bombers on each of the first two ships and eight bombers on each of the latter were certified in night attack.
source
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  #17  
Old 22 Jun 15, 16:55
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The invasion of Ceylon in Feb 1942 (as mentioned in the 1st post) forces Churchill to invade Madagascar even earlier in order to secure supplies for Egypt around S Africa.

However, while Britain prepares for the invasion, as stated in the 1st post, Japan invades Mauritius 3 weeks after Ceylon.

A week into the British invasion of Madagascar with 2 CVs, BBs, CAs, etc, Japan attacks from Mauritius with subs, G4Ms, a CV, 2CVLs, 12 DDs, 2 each BBs, CAs and CLs, sinks both CVs and damaged several ships, so the RN withdraws from Madagascar and Kenya to S. Africa.

Japan occupies the excellent harbor in N Madagascar. Britain cannot supply Egypt, so Rommel defeats Auchinleck and captures enough equipment and supplies to take Egypt.
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  #18  
Old 24 Jun 15, 14:13
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The Fokker DJ (Düsenjäger) is extremely easy to produce and lightweight, since she lacks landing gear.

2 DJ are launched at 10,000 ft, 160 mph from a 6 engine plane, saving a lot of the DJs fuel on TO & climb.

The DJ lands on 600ft long,, 33ft wide strips made with a 3/4" thick, porous rubber sheet on 8" coconut fiber mats. The landing strips are layed at the front and are soon abandoned as the front moves rapidly. The large TO planes operate 60 miles from the front from primitive airfields and are covered by fighters, which take off further from the front.

During the winter, the rubber sheets have an electric heating element underneath to deice and maintain the rubber's elasticity.
The centerline of the strip is 10cm higher than the edges and there are drainage ditches along the edges.

in Mid 1942 500 DJ per month are produced in each of 4 different plants (GEI, Holland, Sweden and Austria). The DJ attains 455 mph at 6,000 ft and exceeds 600 mph at her 40,000ft ceiling.
She has three 20mm cannon which can fire explosive rounds against planes, trucks, etc, or saboted, tungsten, AP shells and six AT rockets. She has wingtip tanks and drop tanks.

Despite the small 160 ft2 wing, the extremely lightweight plane has a low wing loading after dropping her tanks, so maneuverability, rate of climb, glide distance (w/o ammo and fuel) and landing speed (with little ammo and fuel) are excellent. The small, fast planes are difficult to detect, track and shoot down.

Using the Jet Stream, the DJ can travel relatively long distances eastward with a full load from the Baltic countries at 600 mph & 40,000ft and return at lower altitude and speed after getting rid of her load. This allows her to destroy planes on the ground in airfields several hundreds miles from base and also attack columns advancing to the front long before they reach it.

Last edited by Draco; 24 Jun 15 at 14:23..
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  #19  
Old 24 Jun 15, 16:32
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Owing to reduced weight and oxygen consumption, Fokker recommends that women weighing 55kg or less and measuring 1.66m or less be trained as pilots for the DJ.
This allows for smaller and lighter cockpits, parachutes (made of Chinese silk) and oxygen systems, further reducing weight.

With smaller women, China further reduces the maximum pilot weight to 48kg and height to 1.50m.

The lack of landing gear, the light pilot, the 2 wing guns and ammo and the wing tip and drop tanks result in excellent weight distribution, which allows for an easily produced constant wing section (a single rib size and a long strip of aluminum skin).

The abundance of small Chinese and native GEI women vying for the good pilot salary and kill bonuses induces Germany to open a German language and pilot training school especially for them and allows Fokker to optimize the plane for 48kg, 1.50m pilots. Germany hires 20,000 native GEI and Chinese female pilots.

Last edited by Draco; 24 Jun 15 at 16:50..
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  #20  
Old 24 Jun 15, 17:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Fokker DJ (Düsenjäger) is extremely easy to produce and lightweight, since she lacks landing gear.

2 DJ are launched at 10,000 ft, 160 mph from a 6 engine plane, saving a lot of the DJs fuel on TO & climb.

The DJ lands on 600ft long,, 33ft wide strips made with a 3/4" thick, porous rubber sheet on 8" coconut fiber mats. The landing strips are layed at the front and are soon abandoned as the front moves rapidly. The large TO planes operate 60 miles from the front from primitive airfields and are covered by fighters, which take off further from the front.

During the winter, the rubber sheets have an electric heating element underneath to deice and maintain the rubber's elasticity.
The centerline of the strip is 10cm higher than the edges and there are drainage ditches along the edges.

in Mid 1942 500 DJ per month are produced in each of 4 different plants (GEI, Holland, Sweden and Austria). The DJ attains 455 mph at 6,000 ft and exceeds 600 mph at her 40,000ft ceiling.
She has three 20mm cannon which can fire explosive rounds against planes, trucks, etc, or saboted, tungsten, AP shells and six AT rockets. She has wingtip tanks and drop tanks.

Despite the small 160 ft2 wing, the extremely lightweight plane has a low wing loading after dropping her tanks, so maneuverability, rate of climb, glide distance (w/o ammo and fuel) and landing speed (with little ammo and fuel) are excellent. The small, fast planes are difficult to detect, track and shoot down.

Using the Jet Stream, the DJ can travel relatively long distances eastward with a full load from the Baltic countries at 600 mph & 40,000ft and return at lower altitude and speed after getting rid of her load. This allows her to destroy planes on the ground in airfields several hundreds miles from base and also attack columns advancing to the front long before they reach it.
Wrong thread? Or is your Germany absorbing Holland spilling over into this thread (even though Holland had little to gain from being part of Germany)?

But who is producing this jet fighter (in 1942 no less)? and how are they making 500 per month? And where's the idiot who came up with the rubber runway? and how did he managed to convince their air force(s) as to it's practicality. When did they do the R&D and Testing on it? When did they develop the fighter? When did they develop it's carrier aircraft and the procedures to do this? Not to mention the equipment to support them.

Said runways require the use of some 110 tons of coconut fibers and some 40 tons of rubber. And will have to be built any where you little wonder fighter goes. This is not a very economical use of scarce rubber. The main reason the RN did not adopt it was the fact hat the ~10% improvements to weight (Translating to endurance (~45min) and speed (~20 mph)) was not considered worth the cost of building these kinds of runways, and the fact that they could not use existing ones. Source
================================================== =====
The Draco Pearl Harbor Raid done with a real look to historical reality's.

The IJN invading parts of the Hawaiian islands will delay operations else where.

As their are only 40ish carrier qualified night capable bomber crews in the IJN at the time, the first wave is changed to take place at midnight (12 am) with 40 torpedo bombers with 10 more crews trained to drop flares, with the 2nd wave of 200 bombers and 50 escorts to deal with the airfields with about 80 to deal more damage to ships, taking off at 4 am, a 3rd wave of 90 bombers and 30 fighters to deal with harbor facility's taking off at 5 am

A 4th wave at launched 2 pm strikes key targets for the invasion targets.
Which will land at 5pm on the 7th to minimize any US aircraft responses.

Due to this the Radar at Opana Point Detects the aircraft about 45 minutes out, and considering that the flight of B-17s where not expected for another few hours, the US Forces are put on alert, however reactions are slow and the USN is only starting to come online when the attack hits, California, Oklahoma and West Virginia are hit and sunk, Nevada takes a torpedo hit as are Vestal, Raleigh, Tangier, Utah and Detroit, the Destroyers Henley and Patterson are also damaged when a torpedo strikes the Patterson.
Anti Aircraft fire only accounts for just 2 aircraft.

The 2nd Wave scheduled to attack just after dawn is detected an hour out and the US AAF launches fighters and anti aircraft crews fully maned and ready with the ships leaving harbor.

In the ensuing dogfight 30 US fighters are shot down another 20 damaged, with 50 IJN aircraft being downed as well, most bombers. The remaining aircraft manage to destroy some 30 aircraft still on the ground, and hit a few small ships still in the harbor. AA Defenses claim another 15 aircraft

The 3rd wave meets a smiler end, when it's pounced by over roughly 70 fighters, and only manage to destroy 5 of the fuel tanks and some light damage to other harbor facility's at the cost of 30 aircraft.

The 4th wave is surprisingly not affected, the IJN spend the rest of the day bringing up their reserve aircraft to operational status, Replacing some 30 aircraft of the 100 they lost (not sure if they have the crews to man them, but they can replace the damaged aircraft).

The initial landings on Kauai goes surprisingly smooth and the Island is quickly captured, the Airfield is found in a useable condition, and the next morning (8th December) 18 Zero Fighters are flown in.
Maui However is a disaster, as soon after the landings take place the USN shows up and quickly sinks the transports. Only a Battalion of troops are ashore.
Patrol planes are sent out in the after noon to find the IJN ships.

By the end of the day the USN is far from finished, the Army Air forces are far from finished and the harbor installations are far from destroyed, and the IJN has lost a significant amount of aircraft and crews.

A 5th wave in the attempt to finish off the remaining aircraft, ends badly losing more than 50 aircraft for another 40 destroyed USAAF aircraft. Then around Noon the IJN fleet is spotted, and the Carrier Enterprise also gets in on the action. In the ensuing action the Carrier Ryujo is sunk, along with another damaged, the USN loses a Battleship and a few other ships damaged.

With their position compromised the IJN fleet withdraws. Leaving the landing forces to their fates, in the ensuring months they are retaken.
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  #21  
Old 24 Jun 15, 21:54
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Thanks and sorry, I'll repost in the right thread
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  #22  
Old 24 Jun 15, 22:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post


The Draco Pearl Harbor Raid done with a real look to historical reality's.

The IJN invading parts of the Hawaiian islands will delay operations else where.

As their are only 40ish carrier qualified night capable bomber crews in the IJN at the time, the first wave is changed to take place at midnight (12 am) with 40 torpedo bombers with 10 more crews trained to drop flares, with the 2nd wave of 200 bombers and 50 escorts to deal with the airfields with about 80 to deal more damage to ships, taking off at 4 am, a 3rd wave of 90 bombers and 30 fighters to deal with harbor facility's taking off at 5 am

A 4th wave at launched 2 pm strikes key targets for the invasion targets.
Which will land at 5pm on the 7th to minimize any US aircraft responses.

Due to this the Radar at Opana Point Detects the aircraft about 45 minutes out, and considering that the flight of B-17s where not expected for another few hours, the US Forces are put on alert, however reactions are slow and the USN is only starting to come online when the attack hits, California, Oklahoma and West Virginia are hit and sunk, Nevada takes a torpedo hit as are Vestal, Raleigh, Tangier, Utah and Detroit, the Destroyers Henley and Patterson are also damaged when a torpedo strikes the Patterson.
Anti Aircraft fire only accounts for just 2 aircraft.

The 2nd Wave scheduled to attack just after dawn is detected an hour out and the US AAF launches fighters and anti aircraft crews fully maned and ready with the ships leaving harbor.

In the ensuing dogfight 30 US fighters are shot down another 20 damaged, with 50 IJN aircraft being downed as well, most bombers. The remaining aircraft manage to destroy some 30 aircraft still on the ground, and hit a few small ships still in the harbor. AA Defenses claim another 15 aircraft

The 3rd wave meets a smiler end, when it's pounced by over roughly 70 fighters, and only manage to destroy 5 of the fuel tanks and some light damage to other harbor facility's at the cost of 30 aircraft.

The 4th wave is surprisingly not affected, the IJN spend the rest of the day bringing up their reserve aircraft to operational status, Replacing some 30 aircraft of the 100 they lost (not sure if they have the crews to man them, but they can replace the damaged aircraft).

The initial landings on Kauai goes surprisingly smooth and the Island is quickly captured, the Airfield is found in a useable condition, and the next morning (8th December) 18 Zero Fighters are flown in.
Maui However is a disaster, as soon after the landings take place the USN shows up and quickly sinks the transports. Only a Battalion of troops are ashore.
Patrol planes are sent out in the after noon to find the IJN ships.

By the end of the day the USN is far from finished, the Army Air forces are far from finished and the harbor installations are far from destroyed, and the IJN has lost a significant amount of aircraft and crews.

A 5th wave in the attempt to finish off the remaining aircraft, ends badly losing more than 50 aircraft for another 40 destroyed USAAF aircraft. Then around Noon the IJN fleet is spotted, and the Carrier Enterprise also gets in on the action. In the ensuing action the Carrier Ryujo is sunk, along with another damaged, the USN loses a Battleship and a few other ships damaged.

With their position compromised the IJN fleet withdraws. Leaving the landing forces to their fates, in the ensuring months they are retaken.
There are no operations elsewhere, except in Mindoro & Palawan, which have very weak defenses and have planety of ships, land based planes from Formosa, etc, to support them.

The 1st wave at dusk with many more planes than used OTL and concentrating only on planes, pilots barracks and AAA (no ships are attacked at all) leave extremely few planes and pilots for the dawn wave to finish off and they don't stand a chance in hell against superior planes in much larger numbers.

What USN is counter attacking in Maui?, the ships at PH were sunk at the beginning of the battle, any few ships returning to Hawaii (CVs, a CA from Johnston, etc,) face a huge IJN fleet with 6 CVs, Ryujo, tenders, BBs, cruisers, DDs, 60 subs, etc, including some in Lahaina Roads and hundreds of naval planes (carrier and tender) and G4Ms arriving in Kauai, which You conceded. The USN and USAAF are decimated, only the useless, isolated land forces remain in Oahu, the main Island, etc, The USN and USAAF cannot even approach from the mainland, with any hope of success.
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  #23  
Old 25 Jun 15, 00:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
There are no operations elsewhere, except in Mindoro & Palawan, which have very weak defenses and have planety of ships, land based planes from Formosa, etc, to support them.

The 1st wave at dusk with many more planes than used OTL and concentrating only on planes, pilots barracks and AAA (no ships are attacked at all) leave extremely few planes and pilots for the dawn wave to finish off and they don't stand a chance in hell against superior planes in much larger numbers.

What USN is counter attacking in Maui?, the ships at PH were sunk at the beginning of the battle, any few ships returning to Hawaii (CVs, a CA from Johnston, etc,) face a huge IJN fleet with 6 CVs, Ryujo, tenders, BBs, cruisers, DDs, 60 subs, etc, including some in Lahaina Roads and hundreds of naval planes (carrier and tender) and G4Ms arriving in Kauai, which You conceded. The USN and USAAF are decimated, only the useless, isolated land forces remain in Oahu, the main Island, etc, The USN and USAAF cannot even approach from the mainland, with any hope of success.
Nope your are the one who understands noting, the IJN can not never and will not stay for more than a week at pearl (case point your not reaming your carriers while in this area, and you will be out of ordnance after a few days). And the ships will have to be refueled as well and the IJN had many complaints about that area with this raid...

2nd your attack plans are rubbish, and do not account for the very limited number of carrier qualified night pilots they have, two of your fleet carriers are not qualified at the time of the attack to do night operations at all (I doubt any of the light carriers are qualified as well), which is why they did not do a night attack (and a night attack was part of the original plan in the first place!).

The original plan also involved invading forces, but that was dismissed due to logistical problems as well.

IJN sub doctrine was an abject failure, worse is that they knew about it by PH but did little to change it.

Any ships getting close to bombard Oahu is going to play 1st Wake 2.0 on crack.

And going by your OP has the same effect as what I wrote, but ignores the fact that your using 300+ planes for a night attack, when they only have 40ish that can in fact do so.
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  #24  
Old 25 Jun 15, 01:21
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Supply ships arrive from the Marshalls after the initial attack. G4M, Ki-27 (since no planes remain in Oahu), Zeroes, etc, and occupation troops and ships remain in Kauai, Oahu and Lahaina Road. 2 CVs go on to invade New Caledonia and Port Moresby early in the war, while the others head back to Japan and then to invade Malaya and Ceylon and Mauritius, striking a devastating blow to Britain early in the war.

The US has to decide whether to follow the Germany first policy and keep the ships in the Atlantic or weaken that fleet to send some ships to the Pacific at great risk and without bases beyond the W coast and Samoa.

As You stated, Nagumo cancelled the night attack. In this scenario Yamamoto is insisting on night waves. All carriers obviously qualify for a night attack in the months before the attack. Actually, Yamamoto is leading the Hawaii operation with Zuikaku as his flagship.

It is much simpler to plan invasions in only 2 initial sets of weak theaters Palawan-Mindoro-B. Borneo and Kauai-Maui and a concentrated attack on PH than the hellaciosuly complicated warship, troop transport, supply ship and submarine deployment OTL, against large forces in Malaya and the PI, etc,

OTL all carriers traveled enromous distances with extremely little productivity, compared to this scenario.

OTL all carriers and warships from the PH attack sped back all the way to Japan (some stopping brielly to support the invasion of Wake) after inflicting ridiculous damage.
Then 4 carriers sailed all the way to raid useless Darwin then all the way to raid Ceylon (instead of invading it) and hunt for a while in the Indian. Then Shoho, Zuikaku & Shokaku sailed all the way to try to invade Port Moresby in May 1942, when it was much stronger than in this scenario (much earlier). Ryujo sailed an incredible distance from Dec 7, 1941 to her demise in Guadalcanal, producing extremely little the last 6 months.

Last edited by Draco; 25 Jun 15 at 01:36..
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  #25  
Old 25 Jun 15, 01:46
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Old 25 Jun 15, 02:00
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What? You don't believe that Yamamoto would lead personally a vital, prolonged operation to deny the US an essential base, far more decisive than a silly raid lasting a few hours? Ater all, he was on his way to much less important Midway when Nagumo lost his carriers.

Notice that in this operation elite army pilots and crated planes are also participating from Kauai and Maui.

Lahaina road, Kauai and Maui become more important and stronger than Truck.
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Old 25 Jun 15, 02:04
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What? You don't believe that Yamamoto would lead personally a vital, prolonged operation to deny the US an essential base, far more decisive than a silly raid lasting a few hours? Ater all, he was on his way to much less important Midway when Nagumo lost his carriers.

Notice that in this operation elite army pilots and crated planes are also participating from Kauai and Maui.
I could care less about Yamamoto. He was no more likely to take a personal role in an operation than Admiral King or Nimitz was. That wasn't his position or job.

My comment was about your inane, insane, ignorance of reality in proposing the operational details you have. They have been thoroughly discredited to the point that you bringing them up afterwards amounts to nothing more than trolling.
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Old 25 Jun 15, 02:10
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Yamamoto sailed to supervise the final battle in Midway, which King or Nimitz didn't. Hell Nimitz didn't even bother to go to the PI, where he could have prevented Halsey's blunder, etc,

Sorry if You don't like the incredible fact that the mighty US was caught with its pants all the way down in PH, Kauai, Maui and Lahaina Road on Dec 7.

The simple fact that they had Radar and only operated it at night and without a scrambling system is incredible, just as the British not operating the Radar in Ceylon on Sundays 4 months into the war with Japan and ignoring completely phone calls reporting Japanese planes long before they arrived to attack the bases.
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Old 25 Jun 15, 02:15
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Yamamoto sailed to supervise the final battle in Midway, which King or Nimitz didn't. Hell Nimitz didn't even bother to go to the PI, where he could have prevented Halsey's blunder, etc,
Halsey's blunder? What blunder would that be?

Quote:
Sorry if You don't like the incredible fact that the mighty US was caught with its pants all the way down in PH, Kauai, Maui and Lahaina Road on Dec 7.

The simple fact that they had Radar and only operated it at night and without a scrambling system is incredible, just as the British not operating the Radar in Ceylon on Sundays 4 months into the war with Japan and ignoring completely phone calls reporting Japanese planes long before they arrived to attack the bases.
The US given it was a surprise attack responded rather quickly. At least the USN did. The USAAC by the second raid was responding well and the Japanese suffered considerable casualties. That count would have risen with a third strike.
The US air defense system was still operating in peacetime! That's something you ignore totally.

What Britain was doing or not doing is irrelevant. That is a red herring.
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Old 25 Jun 15, 03:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Supply ships arrive from the Marshalls after the initial attack. G4M, Ki-27 (since no planes remain in Oahu), Zeroes, etc, and occupation troops and ships remain in Kauai, Oahu and Lahaina Road. 2 CVs go on to invade New Caledonia and Port Moresby early in the war, while the others head back to Japan and then to invade Malaya and Ceylon and Mauritius, striking a devastating blow to Britain early in the war.
Right... And this is supposed to be easier to plan? Might I ask is how these planes are getting to Kauai?


Quote:
As You stated, Nagumo cancelled the night attack. In this scenario Yamamoto is insisting on night waves. All carriers obviously qualify for a night attack in the months before the attack. Actually, Yamamoto is leading the Hawaii operation with Zuikaku as his flagship.
No they will not, they do not have the time to do so, the Guy who was to lead the attack was only notified of the operation on 1st October, and at that point their was a lot of planing left to do and a number of the key points where not ready, in fact they where not even sure that they would get six carriers, as their was a need for them elsewhere.

Furthermore the leaders of 1st air fleet (you know they guys who will be flying the planes) where only informed of the operation on November 2nd 1941, and only the general plan.

So basically you are saying that you can make 350+ air crews competent for attacking in formation of a heavily fortified base in the dark (as well as taking off, forming up, navigation and landing) in less than a month? Thats a fairly tall order.

As for Yamamoto insisting that's not likely going to happen, he did not do so historically and he's unlikely to do so here. Further more it's a good thing they did not go with his plane, which was a one way trip for all the pilots involved, as they had to ditch at sea... it was a launch and forget them (the destroyers can pick the crews up).


Quote:
It is much simpler to plan invasions in only 2 initial sets of weak theaters Palawan-Mindoro-B. Borneo and Kauai-Maui and a concentrated attack on PH than the hellaciosuly complicated warship, troop transport, supply ship and submarine deployment OTL, against large forces in Malaya and the PI, etc,
Not realy

keep in mind this is the basic choices Japan faced in 1941

Quote:
Option one: attack and take the Dutch and British territories only, accept the
operational risks posed by American forces astride sea lines of communications,
and if the Americans engaged militarily, only then attack U.S. assets
and territories.
• Option two: take the Philippines at the outset, reducing the operational risk
to Japanese sea-lanes, and plan for the war with the United States that this
action would bring.
Source is the same source where I found the number of IJN night qualified crews. (link at the bottom of the very first post on this page)


This is the War plan
Quote:
Phase One: The seizure of the Southern Areas; the attack on the United States Fleet
in Hawaii, and the seizure of strategic areas and positions for the establishment of a
perimeter for the defense of the Southern Resources Area and the Japanese Mainland.
The area to be seized was that within the line which joins the Kuriles, Marshalls
(including Wake), Bismarcks, Timor, Java, Sumatra, Malaya, and Burma.
Phase Two: Consolidation and strengthening of the defensive perimeter, and
Phase Three: The interception and destruction of any attacking strength, which
might threaten the defensive perimeter or the vital areas within the perimeter. Concurrently
with intercept operations the activation of plans to destroy the United States
will to fight.
Phase 1 was expected to be accomplished in 150 days.


Quote:
OTL all carriers traveled enromous distances with extremely little productivity, compared to this scenario.

OTL all carriers and warships from the PH attack sped back all the way to Japan (some stopping brielly to support the invasion of Wake) after inflicting ridiculous damage.
Then 4 carriers sailed all the way to raid useless Darwin then all the way to raid Ceylon (instead of invading it) and hunt for a while in the Indian. Then Shoho, Zuikaku & Shokaku sailed all the way to try to invade Port Moresby in May 1942, when it was much stronger than in this scenario (much earlier). Ryujo sailed an incredible distance from Dec 7, 1941 to her demise in Guadalcanal, producing extremely little the last 6 months.
Keep in mind that your carriers have a finite load of bombs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Yamamoto sailed to supervise the final battle in Midway, which King or Nimitz didn't. Hell Nimitz didn't even bother to go to the PI, where he could have prevented Halsey's blunder, etc,

Sorry if You don't like the incredible fact that the mighty US was caught with its pants all the way down in PH, Kauai, Maui and Lahaina Road on Dec 7.

The simple fact that they had Radar and only operated it at night and without a scrambling system is incredible, just as the British not operating the Radar in Ceylon on Sundays 4 months into the war with Japan and ignoring completely phone calls reporting Japanese planes long before they arrived to attack the bases.
Yamamoto did a lot of good being present at midway now did he? Oh wait he accomplished practically nothing while their.

What is this scrambling thing you mentioned?



Edit:
One thing to note is the fact that historically the IJN had 29 planes shot down (9 in the first and 20 in the second), however they also had more than 110 planes damaged, of which 26, where written off (12 in the first and 14 in the 2nd). 9 of the planes shot down where in air to air combat (by just 5 US pilots)

The US AAF had 57 useable fighters after the attack, the Navy and Marines about 20 more (Their losses are unknown to me).

Further more the weather conditions where deteriorating, it took quite some time historically to get the all of the planes back onboard, not helped that some crashed on the decks... By the 9th AFAIK the weather had gotten bad enough that air operations had to be halted.

Last edited by Nebfer; 25 Jun 15 at 05:13..
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