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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #31  
Old 19 Jun 15, 22:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Hitler starts building up forces along its very long Polish border and sends Ribbentrop to Moscow to negotiate a non aggression pact which including sharing Poland.
When the pact is signed Hitler makes and offer of annexation and includes a copy of the R-M secret protocol.

Poland knows that annexation with Germany is infinitely better than simulatneous invasion by the REd and German armies. Many Poles also like the idea of good jobs, the Autobahn and VW and sending the millions of Polish Jews to Borneo.
Poland opens is borders and becomes part of the Reich.
You seem under the opinion that giving a Poland an ultimatum and showing documents that Germany just made with Russia that says if Germany attacks Poland Russia will also invade, will make the Poles suddenly want to join with Germany.

If I was Poland I would put my army's on alert and publicly announce that document to the world.

Germanys already in the Dog House due to it's annexation of the Baltic country's and Holland...
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  #32  
Old 19 Jun 15, 22:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
You seem under the opinion that giving a Poland an ultimatum and showing documents that Germany just made with Russia that says if Germany attacks Poland Russia will also invade, will make the Poles suddenly want to join with Germany.

If I was Poland I would put my army's on alert and publicly announce that document to the world.

Germanys already in the Dog House due to it's annexation of the Baltic country's and Holland...
Poland's only hope (a long shot, given France's planning on a defensive, rather than an offensive war) was to hold the Romanian corridor until France and Britain attacked Germany. With Stalin attacking simultaneously (with a larger army than Germany and tens of thousands of tanks and planes), and with Germany surrounding much of Poland (including former Lithuania and Latvia) there is no way that Poland can hold the Romanian corridor or defeat both invaders or even defend its long borders.
Stalin had a much worse track record than Germany, which has improved the living standard of the countries it annexed. It's either waste hundreds of thousands of lives, devastate the country and be occupied by Stalin or be annexed by Germany. A no brainer. The Poles were brave, but not suicidal or stupid. Historically, Poland had fared much better udner Germany than under Russia and Stalin and Cummunism were much worse than any Czar.
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  #33  
Old 19 Jun 15, 22:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
You seem under the opinion that giving a Poland an ultimatum and showing documents that Germany just made with Russia that says if Germany attacks Poland Russia will also invade, will make the Poles suddenly want to join with Germany.

If I was Poland I would put my army's on alert and publicly announce that document to the world.

Germanys already in the Dog House due to it's annexation of the Baltic country's and Holland...
If I was Poland I'd mobilize, then show the documents to the world saying this is what Germany is threatening me with.
That should get even the US involved...

That would get Britain and France to mobilize for sure. Belgium is likely to throw in with the French and British meaning their forces aren't in France they're on the Belgian border with Germany.
Can you say no blitzkrieg into France?

Nothing like trying to cross the Rhine to take on the French and British because they decided Germany is too dangerous to talk to any more.

Stalin laughs his rear off as Hitler flounders in a war with France and Britain while his country slowly goes bankrupt now isolated. The US refuses to supply Russia but sends gobs of material to France and Britain.
Worse, without France falling, the U-boat war goes badly as the British, French, then US isolate the boats as they try to emerge from the Baltic into the North Sea.
Without taking France, Norway remains neutral and the British end iron shipments out of Norway from Sweden in the winter. German industry withers on the vine.

Dutch production is a mere fraction of what Germany though it was and there is a building resistance to occupation. Worse, the Allies are bombing the snot of Dutch cities because they are closer to England than German ones.

Japanese occupation of the DEI gets them in a war with the US, Britain, and France. With the US fleet intact, and the French still fighting, things don't go well when the US pulls much of the Atlantic fleet into the Pacific. With a fraction of the U-boat campaign, the US doesn't build near as many escorts and builds carriers and other ships for the Pacific faster.
Japan gets crushed.

The Germans find themselves in another WW 1 only now the US is also involved early. With their military taking heavy casualties in a stalled land war, the German people start to protest the government as in WW 1...

Things just go down hill from there for Germany.
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  #34  
Old 19 Jun 15, 22:31
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OTL France and Britain did almost nothing other than declare war even when Hitler attacked and even less after Stalin attacked.
They never declared war on the USSR, since they knew they could not even defeat Germany in an offensive attack, much less the 2 colossi.

The US didn't do anything either against Germany alone, much less against two countries. Especially with Germany, Japan and the USSR extremely strong in 1941 and France in political and exonomic chaos and with Germany in Alsace-Lorraine already.
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  #35  
Old 22 Jun 15, 20:10
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After the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine, Hitler annexes Norway and Sweden and signs mutual assistance pacts with Finland, Iran, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria & Turkey.

The Autobahn and an excellent RR and airport network extend from Alsace-Lorraine to Denmark, Brest, Lvov, Estonia, etc, and in former Sweden, Java & Sumatra.

In 1941 Fokker designs a very light, single jet engine plane with a very small vertical stabilizer and a 160 ft2 wing with wingtip tanks, three 20 mm cannon and drop tanks, which is extremely maneuverable, inexpensive and capable of 455 mph and is produced in the GEI, former Holland, Poland and Austria in large numbers. Germany sells 500 planes each to Japan, Romania, Turkey, Iran and China and 250 planes each to Finland and Hungary for the invasion of the USSR in 1942.
The small, fast plane makes a difficult target for fighters and AAA and besides being an excellent fighter, she can fire 6 AT rockets.

Germany produces STUGs with HV 75 mm guns in Bavaria, Poland & GEI & under license in China and Romania and 2,000 Tiger tanks before starting the war and can make 250 per month in several plants.

Japan wants to invade Indochina, Malaya and the PI, but Hitler has an extremely strong air force in the GEI and mutual assistance pacts with Britain, Australia, NZ, France & the US, which force Japan to expand in the USSR, with which Hitler has no mutual assistance pact.

In May 1942 Japan, China, Germany, Turkey, Iran, Finland, Romania, Hungary and Germany attack the USSR.

30 German divisions advance from Estonia toward Moscow, 30 German and 10 Finnish divisions occupy Karelia, Kola and Leningrad from Finland. 30 German and 30 Romanian divisions advance from Romania to Odessa, Rostov and Kharkov.

The Soviet fleets and air force are rapidly destroyed.

30 German, 15 Turk and 15 Irani divisions occupy the S Caucasus.

10 German and 100 Chinese divisions advance into Soviet Mongolia and Kazakhstan.

65 Japanese divisions occupy Soviet Sakhalin and smaller islands, part of Soviet Mongolia and the E USSR.

Within a month the USSR has lost 4 million troops (mostly captured) and Moscow is under attack by columns from Estonia, Leningrad and Kharkov. Million of Soviet troops are trapped in the Ukraine and between the Japanese, Chinese and Germans.
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  #36  
Old 22 Jun 15, 23:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Germany produces STUGs with HV 75 mm guns in Bavaria, Poland & GEI & under license in China and Romania and 2,000 Tiger tanks before starting the war and can make 250 per month in several plants.
I picked one item out of the drivel for derision...

Germany historically produced just 1347 Tiger I tanks. Here, Draco wants China and Romania to build them too. Of course, neither nation has 1% of the machinery necessary to do this.

Like where do the special horizontal boring machines specially made for manufacturing Tigers come from? Who's paying for these? How long will it take to manufacture these and then ship them to wherever and install them in factories that don't exist?



Or this specialized machine:



Or this one?



Or this one?



Or the 300 ton roll forming machine to make the turret sides?

So, I guess they are "starting the war" sometime in the 1960's...

Of course, I expect Draco to use more Handwavium and PFM to gloss over the completely inane and impossible statement he made above.

None of those places could even build a StuG III or Pz III. The lack of skilled workers, means to produce torsion bars, lack of boring machines to work the hulls, lack of welding gear of the right type and quality... etc., ends that nonsense.
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  #37  
Old 23 Jun 15, 02:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
In 1941 Fokker designs a very light, single jet engine plane with a very small vertical stabilizer.

What engine does Fokker use? Whittle and von Ohain are the only two people to have developed a jet engine and neither one has one that is more than a prototype. von Ohain's HeS 3b has flown once on the He 178 which was nothing more than a demonstration plane of no other value.

So, where does the jet engine come from?

Second, as everybody found out very quickly, small vertical stabilizers on jets lead to directional instability so the design would be a fail on that account too.

Basically, this is another piece of puerile drivel that has no means of historical basis to back it.
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  #38  
Old 23 Jun 15, 11:09
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China and Romania are building STUGS without tirrets. Germany has a lot more money and industry from oil, VWs, etc,

Twin jet engines require large stabilizers, single engine planes don't, there is no torque.

The He 178 flew shortly after the annexation of Holland in 1939, a lot of thinks happened in 2 years.

The D.XXI uses the BMW 132, slightly more powerful than the Bristol Mercury and quite reliable.

Owing to Britain not beign at war and the war starting in 1942, Germany can deploy in the USSR thousands of 88mm and 105mm guns and their crews (used OTL for FLAK in Germany, France, Greece, Sicily, etc, and to fight in Africa)
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  #39  
Old 23 Jun 15, 11:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
China and Romania are building STUGS without tirrets. Germany has a lot more money and industry from oil, VWs, etc,

But, as I pointed out, torsion bars, engines that require specialized manufacturing techniques, precision welding, gun sights with optics they can't manufacture, radios they can't make, transmissions they can't cut gears for, and a plethora of other things.


Quote:
Twin jet engines require large stabilizers, single engine planes don't, there is no torque.
Wrong. The most classic and clearest example is the F-100. The vertical tail was reduced in size from the prototype on the F-100A and resulted in a yaw problem in certain flight attitudes that would cause the plane to disintegrate. It was a massive and costly fix.
There isn't any torque associated with jet aircraft unlike prop planes. That's why the YB-35 prop flying wing bomber was stable but the YB-49 jet flying wing was unstable.

Quote:
The He 178 flew shortly after the annexation of Holland in 1939, a lot of thinks happened in 2 years.
So? None of that explains where Fokker would get a jet engine to power an airplane in 1941


Quote:
The D.XXI uses the BMW 132, slightly more powerful than the Bristol Mercury and quite reliable.
Again, meh. The DXXI was an obsolescent design in 1940 and obsolete by 1941.

Quote:
Owing to Britain not beign at war and the war starting in 1942, Germany can deploy in the USSR thousands of 88mm and 105mm guns and their crews (used OTL for FLAK in Germany, France, Greece, Sicily, etc, and to fight in Africa)
Drivel. Thousands means deploying their entire inventory of these weapons there.
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  #40  
Old 23 Jun 15, 11:31
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Your limited abilities are not shared by the Germans, who supply everything China and Romania cannot make.

the F-100 is a supersonic boxcar, requiring ridiculously huge power, another aberration. We are talking about a 455 mph, extremely light, streamlined plane with reasonable thrust.
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  #41  
Old 23 Jun 15, 11:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Your limited abilities are not shared by the Germans, who supply everything China and Romania cannot make.
My abilities are not in question here. The ability of the Germans to produce masses of heavy machinery, ship them to distant places, build massive factories there, then train a workforce to use the equipment is.
Since during WW 2 Romania didn't produce any tanks during the war, it indicates they were pretty much incapable of building an entire tank from scratch.
The Brasov factory in Romania did convert / modify some Czech and Russian tanks but that is simplistic compared to production of an entire vehicle.
That pretty much shows that Germany didn't have the resources to supply an entire factory to Romania for the production of a complex AFV.
It is even more absurd to think they could do the same thing in China.

Quote:
the F-100 is a supersonic boxcar, requiring ridiculously huge power, another aberration. We are talking about a 455 mph, extremely light, streamlined plane with reasonable thrust.
Unsourced drivel. Put up or shut up.
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  #42  
Old 23 Jun 15, 12:10
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[QUOTE=Draco;3055056



In 1941 Fokker designs a very light, single jet engine plane with a very small vertical stabilizer and a 160 ft2 wing with wingtip tanks, three 20 mm cannon and drop tanks, which is extremely maneuverable, inexpensive and capable of 455 mph and is produced in the GEI, former Holland, Poland and Austria in large numbers.

[/QUOTE]

I like to see this : Antthony Fokker died in december 1939 and since several years he was not longer master in own house : Fokker was controlled by GM .
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  #43  
Old 23 Jun 15, 12:25
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Anthony Fokker had not designed planes for years, his engineers had and would continue to do so. Just like Ford continues after Henry.
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  #44  
Old 23 Jun 15, 12:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Anthony Fokker had not designed planes for years, his engineers had and would continue to do so. Just like Ford continues after Henry.
Doesn't change that you haven't explained where they'd get a jet engine from in 1941...
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  #45  
Old 23 Jun 15, 13:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
My abilities are not in question here. The ability of the Germans to produce masses of heavy machinery, ship them to distant places, build massive factories there, then train a workforce to use the equipment is.
Since during WW 2 Romania didn't produce any tanks during the war, it indicates they were pretty much incapable of building an entire tank from scratch.
The Brasov factory in Romania did convert / modify some Czech and Russian tanks but that is simplistic compared to production of an entire vehicle.
That pretty much shows that Germany didn't have the resources to supply an entire factory to Romania for the production of a complex AFV.
It is even more absurd to think they could do the same thing in China.



Unsourced drivel. Put up or shut up.
OTL Germany was much smaller, had no oil, had to waste huge resources making synthetic fuel, was blockaded (could not import or export many products) and bombed and much of the labor force was fighting since 1939.
Romania lost a large population and chunk of territory to the USSR in 1940.
China was ravaged for long years, lost millions and had to move the little industry Germany had installed there (some of it when Germany was very poor, before Hitler).
None of that occurs in this scenario.

In the GEI and China, Germany can use huge deposits of iron ore from India and Australia to produce steel. Germany can buy chromite from Turkey, S. Africa, tungsten, zinc, etc, from China, rubber from Malaya and Ceylon, minerals from Manchuria, etc, Germany, Romania and Chna can also buy industrial machinery and know-how from any country.

The 10 million Germans who migrate to the GEI reduce the price of farm land, housing, produce, etc, in continental Germany and increase Reich food & industrial production (with cheap local labor and help from Ford, etc, which also help China by building truck and tractor plants there with German guarantees). GEI Germans can import cheap Australian and NZ beef, wool, dairy, eggs, etc, Burma rice, Manchurian soy, Canadian and Argentine wheat, etc,

Romania and China are not producing tanks, only STUGS with many German materials, parts and supervision. The Italians and Japanese produced tanks and the Italians produced a similar armored, SP gun, without German help and Italy had a small industry and labor force. With millions of Germans in the GEI and Americans providing help and a huge labor force in China, Chiang has no problem rapidly developing his industry and agriculture in peace time.
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