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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #1  
Old 18 Jun 15, 14:17
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peaceful annexation of Holland to the Reich in May 1939

Holland was in a depression in 1939. Germany (including Austria) was in rapid industrial expansion. Holland had considerable industrial, shipbulding and agricultural potential, plenty of natural resources in the DEI, which was highly exposed to aggressive Japan and valuable colonies in Suriname, Curacao, etc,

Hitler offers that if Holland becomes part of the Reich, Germany will guarantee the safety of the DEI with a strong air force, army and navy and eliminate unemployment and up minimum wages by guaranteeing buying at a fair price all Dutch produce and products and financing massive industrial expansion, public works, oil exploitation, rubber production, etc, thorugh state programs, which include building 100 large tankers, 200 large cargo ships, 50 DDs, 10 CVLs, 80 U-boats, 1,000 Fokker D.XXI (600 in Holland and 400 in de DEI), 100 seaplanes, extending the Autobahn through the most populated areas, expanding port capacity in all Dutch ports, building 10 modern concrete runway airports in Holland and 10 in the DEI, employing 20,000 people for Lufthansa in Holland and as many in the DEI, 1,000 in Suriname, etc,

When they become part of Germany, all Dutch industries will benefit from the same low prices of German raw materials that German industries get (coal, steel, aluminum, etc,). Dutch engineering and science students will also benefit from free education programs. Germany will hire and train any volunteers as pilots, sailors and soldiers, just like it does in Austria.
All Dutch and German Jews will be allowed to live in Borneo and receive help to start industries there.

Dutch farmers will benefit from low German fertilizer and equipment cost and will sell everything they can produce at a fair price. The Autobahn will reduce produce transportation costs and delivery time.

Hundreds of thousands of unemployed, low wage and young people, Nazis, shipyard and factory workers, farmers, etc, appear in public meetings in Holland and the colonies the day after Hitler's proposal.

French, British and Polish authorities are very worried about German expansion and oil acquisition, but are surprised that Hitler is using peaceful means instead of simlpy invading the weak country.
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  #2  
Old 18 Jun 15, 16:54
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The only reason Germany invaded Holland at all was to flank the Belgian fortification belt around Liege. Had Germany not needed to do that, Holland would have remained neutral.

When Germany declared war on Poland Holland started to mobilize and modernize their military along with construction of additional fortifications.

The DEI doesn't benefit Germany at all once they are at war as they have no navy to force a British blockade with. The Netherlands being under German control loses their ability to trade with the DEI and likely would have faced a forced British occupation of the colony, potentially even a US occupation as the US did with some Vichy and Danish territories.

For the Netherlands this scenario is a total lose. They are better off either siding with the Allies or remaining neutral. The later is their best outcome.
Being neutral they could still trade with the Allies. They could also trade with Germany. Given that the Germans would have to buy mass quantities of some products like Phillips vacuum tubes, the Dutch make out well.
Even if the Japanese declare war and include the DEI the Dutch could have remained neutral towards Germany without difficulty while being openly Allied with the British / US in the Pacific.
Germany gains a trading partner like Spain and Portugal are, while not having to secure the Atlantic coast in Holland.

It would be the absolutely stupidest, worst, thing Holland could do to allow German occupation. They lose control of their country, they lose trade with Britain, France, and everybody else, they lose control of the DEI (who's to say Germany won't just hand the DEI over to Japan?), and basically get totally screwed.
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  #3  
Old 18 Jun 15, 17:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Holland was in a depression in 1939. Germany (including Austria) was in rapid industrial expansion. Holland had considerable industrial, shipbulding and agricultural potential, plenty of natural resources in the DEI, which was highly exposed to aggressive Japan and valuable colonies in Suriname, Curacao, etc,

Hitler offers that if Holland becomes part of the Reich, Germany will guarantee the safety of the DEI with a strong air force, army and navy and eliminate unemployment and up minimum wages by guaranteeing buying at a fair price all Dutch produce and products and financing massive industrial expansion, public works, oil exploitation, rubber production, etc, thorugh state programs, which include building 100 large tankers, 200 large cargo ships, 50 DDs, 10 CVLs, 80 U-boats, 1,000 Fokker D.XXI (600 in Holland and 400 in de DEI), 100 seaplanes, extending the Autobahn through the most populated areas, expanding port capacity in all Dutch ports, building 10 modern concrete runway airports in Holland and 10 in the DEI, employing 20,000 people for Lufthansa in Holland and as many in the DEI, 1,000 in Suriname, etc,

When they become part of Germany, all Dutch industries will benefit from the same low prices of German raw materials that German industries get (coal, steel, aluminum, etc,). Dutch engineering and science students will also benefit from free education programs. Germany will hire and train any volunteers as pilots, sailors and soldiers, just like it does in Austria.
All Dutch and German Jews will be allowed to live in Borneo and receive help to start industries there.

Dutch farmers will benefit from low German fertilizer and equipment cost and will sell everything they can produce at a fair price. The Autobahn will reduce produce transportation costs and delivery time.

Hundreds of thousands of unemployed, low wage and young people, Nazis, shipyard and factory workers, farmers, etc, appear in public meetings in Holland and the colonies the day after Hitler's proposal.

French, British and Polish authorities are very worried about German expansion and oil acquisition, but are surprised that Hitler is using peaceful means instead of simlpy invading the weak country.
Valuable colonies in Suriname

Etc :

Hundred of thousands of Nazis appear in Suriname

The whole population of Suriname was less than hundrerds of thousands
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  #4  
Old 18 Jun 15, 17:32
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I'm surprised he didn't say the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) in the Caribbean are turned into a major Nazi sub base...
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Old 18 Jun 15, 17:58
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I also find his numbers above ludicrous:

Quote:
...which include building 100 large tankers, 200 large cargo ships, 50 DDs, 10 CVLs, 80 U-boats, 1,000 Fokker D.XXI (600 in Holland and 400 in de DEI), 100 seaplanes,

Germany didn't have and didn't build for themselves 100 tankers. Same goes for "large" (I define as about 10,000 ton or greater) cargo ships. The entire German production of destroyers from 1934 to 1945 was less than 40 completed.

Germany doesn't have a single carrier in service in 1939, the one that is near completion is a disaster of a ship and it's far less finished sister ship is about to be sold to Russia. So, 10 CVL, E, PDQ, whatever aren't happening either.

80 U-boats? Germany started WW 2 with 57 in service. The Dutch have 21 of their own subs in service at the time and another 12 building. (along with 10 DD and 4 CL).

Fokker made a total of 148 DXXI fighters...

The Dutch received 28 Do 24 flying boats prior to being occupied. They also had an order with Consolidated in the US for PBY. That would have been cancelled upon being occupied as the US wouldn't allow their export.

The Dutch also ordered 600 light tanks from Marmon Harrington in the US. That represents about 25% of German panzer I production. Then there are armored cars and trucks for APC's. Those amount to almost equal German 1939 production...

The Dutch are also better off with US fighter and bomber planes...

In fact, the Dutch are all 'round better off sticking with the Allies and remaining neutral than getting bent over and raped by Germany.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 18 Jun 15 at 20:20.. Reason: Added more derision
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  #6  
Old 18 Jun 15, 18:47
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Last December, three SNP councillors were expelled from the party for burning the Smith Report - the document which was supposed to devolve more power to Scotland, but delivered nothing.

It echoes events 307 years earlier, when the Articles of Union were publicly burned at Dumfries, and Scotland spent six months under martial law due to the widespread rioting in protest at the, "Peaceful Annexation," of Scotland by England.

There's no such thing as a peaceful annexation (unless you're talking about Germany and Austria, and I still can't get my head around that one), I suppose you'd want Kaiser Bill (in exile in Amsterdam at the time, remember ?) to assume the joint throne.
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Old 18 Jun 15, 20:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Last December, three SNP councillors were expelled from the party for burning the Smith Report - the document which was supposed to devolve more power to Scotland, but delivered nothing.

It echoes events 307 years earlier, when the Articles of Union were publicly burned at Dumfries, and Scotland spent six months under martial law due to the widespread rioting in protest at the, "Peaceful Annexation," of Scotland by England.

There's no such thing as a peaceful annexation (unless you're talking about Germany and Austria, and I still can't get my head around that one), I suppose you'd want Kaiser Bill (in exile in Amsterdam at the time, remember ?) to assume the joint throne.
I'd think Draco might have some thoughts on how the US "annexed" big chunks of land claimed by Mexico (even if there were no Mexicans on that land 95% of the time...)
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Old 18 Jun 15, 20:56
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I do wonder if he really knows how long it takes to build many of these ships. At best it would take Germany and Holland about a decade to build them...
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Old 18 Jun 15, 21:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
I do wonder if he really knows how long it takes to build many of these ships. At best it would take Germany and Holland about a decade to build them...
The Dutch aren't stupid. They'd figure out that Germany couldn't make good on their promises if the whole of German production were turned over to them. The obvious alternative is that the Germans aren't going to make good on anything, take over, then oppress the Dutch, following raping their economy, then the people.
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Old 18 Jun 15, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Last December, three SNP councillors were expelled from the party for burning the Smith Report - the document which was supposed to devolve more power to Scotland, but delivered nothing.

It echoes events 307 years earlier, when the Articles of Union were publicly burned at Dumfries, and Scotland spent six months under martial law due to the widespread rioting in protest at the, "Peaceful Annexation," of Scotland by England.

There's no such thing as a peaceful annexation (unless you're talking about Germany and Austria, and I still can't get my head around that one), I suppose you'd want Kaiser Bill (in exile in Amsterdam at the time, remember ?) to assume the joint throne.
And what would happen to the Dutch royal family ?

Still,there's no doubt that some Dutch might have approved of the loss of independence, just as some Scots applauded the union with England ( a Parcel of Rogues ?).

BTW by" Holland" I assume that what's actually meant is The Netherlands, Holland being just one province therein.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 02:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Holland was in a depression in 1939. Germany (including Austria) was in rapid industrial expansion. Holland had considerable industrial, shipbulding and agricultural potential, plenty of natural resources in the DEI, which was highly exposed to aggressive Japan and valuable colonies in Suriname, Curacao, etc,

Hitler offers that if Holland becomes part of the Reich, Germany will guarantee the safety of the DEI with a strong air force, army and navy and eliminate unemployment and up minimum wages by guaranteeing buying at a fair price all Dutch produce and products and financing massive industrial expansion, public works, oil exploitation, rubber production, etc, thorugh state programs, which include building 100 large tankers, 200 large cargo ships, 50 DDs, 10 CVLs, 80 U-boats, 1,000 Fokker D.XXI (600 in Holland and 400 in de DEI), 100 seaplanes, extending the Autobahn through the most populated areas, expanding port capacity in all Dutch ports, building 10 modern concrete runway airports in Holland and 10 in the DEI, employing 20,000 people for Lufthansa in Holland and as many in the DEI, 1,000 in Suriname, etc,

When they become part of Germany, all Dutch industries will benefit from the same low prices of German raw materials that German industries get (coal, steel, aluminum, etc,). Dutch engineering and science students will also benefit from free education programs. Germany will hire and train any volunteers as pilots, sailors and soldiers, just like it does in Austria.
All Dutch and German Jews will be allowed to live in Borneo and receive help to start industries there.

Dutch farmers will benefit from low German fertilizer and equipment cost and will sell everything they can produce at a fair price. The Autobahn will reduce produce transportation costs and delivery time.

Hundreds of thousands of unemployed, low wage and young people, Nazis, shipyard and factory workers, farmers, etc, appear in public meetings in Holland and the colonies the day after Hitler's proposal.

French, British and Polish authorities are very worried about German expansion and oil acquisition, but are surprised that Hitler is using peaceful means instead of simlpy invading the weak country.
And so the whole crazy merry go round begins again!

100 large tankers, 200 large cargo ships, 50 DDs, 10 CVLs, 80 U-boats, 1,000 Fokker D.XXI (600 in Holland and 400 in de DEI), 100 seaplanes,


If the Dutch stated at once, and worked really hard, the last of these should be nearing completion any year now. Let's hope Chancellor Merkel can make good use of them!

Incidentally, if in 1939 you had asked a shipbuilder to build a CVL you would have received a blank stare. The concept simply did not exist, despite the fact that the Dutch, of course, had vast experience of building aircraft carriers.

Perhaps the Fokker D.XXIs could have been fitted with the radar which otherwise the British would have wasted on Defiants?
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Old 19 Jun 15, 02:58
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Well, the Dutch could have given the Germans what became the 12 ton 40mm twin Mk IV "Hazemeyer" mount.

Also known as the "Antlered beast," and the "Hasslemeyer," it was a twin 40mm gun that rarely worked the way the Boffins said it would while causing ship's crew's any number of maintenance nightmares....

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Old 19 Jun 15, 04:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
And what would happen to the Dutch royal family ?

Still,there's no doubt that some Dutch might have approved of the loss of independence, just as some Scots applauded the union with England ( a Parcel of Rogues ?).

BTW by" Holland" I assume that what's actually meant is The Netherlands, Holland being just one province therein.
Given Draco's grasp of reality, I have little confidence in his abilities in Geography.

My crack about Kaiser Bill was an attempt to show just how far off-beam this latest rambling was.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 04:54
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I'm surprised he didn't say the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) in the Caribbean are turned into a major Nazi sub base...

Because they had already one in Antarctica .
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Old 19 Jun 15, 05:45
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Who is Draco.According to me

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