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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #16  
Old 09 Jun 15, 09:20
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Originally Posted by CarpeDiem View Post
Yes, there were, flown by the He59s of AS.88 of the Legion Condor which used torpedoes as well as bombs in its attacks on shipping.


Thanks I'd forgotten they had some He 59s These also had a 20 mm cannon in the nose for anti shipping duties. Still in use in WW2 around the British coast for mine laying and bomber direction as well as ASR. There is an account of one taking on a Blackburn Roc turret fighter
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  #17  
Old 11 Jun 15, 14:49
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Warships of the Spanish Civil War. In my opinion it was the 2 heavy cruisers that made the difference even though one of them was sunk in 1938

http://www.kbismarck.com/mgl/spanishcivwar.htm
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  #18  
Old 12 Jun 15, 05:53
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Originally Posted by tcox View Post
Warships of the Spanish Civil War. In my opinion it was the 2 heavy cruisers that made the difference even though one of them was sunk in 1938

http://www.kbismarck.com/mgl/spanishcivwar.htm
I've read about the Canarias on that site. There must be a mistake here:

http://www.kbismarck.com/mgl/cruisers.htm#Canarias

where it says:

"On April 25, Canarias and Baleares, after bombarding Malaga, entered the harbor of Cartagena and harassed the Republican fleet."

Málaga already was in Nationalist hands, it was the first success of the Italian CTV. I think he means that the Canarias and Baleares attacked the Republican ships after these had bombarded Málaga.
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  #19  
Old 12 Jun 15, 22:49
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
...
Málaga already was in Nationalist hands, it was the first success of the Italian CTV. I think he means that the Canarias and Baleares attacked the Republican ships after these had bombarded Málaga.
there are a LOT of typos in there, but I attribute them to translation errors.

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Originally Posted by tcox View Post
Warships of the Spanish Civil War. In my opinion it was the 2 heavy cruisers that made the difference even though one of them was sunk in 1938

http://www.kbismarck.com/mgl/spanishcivwar.htm
On paper, the Republicans should have won hands-down. They had the much larger force and it was a better balance. However, they were out-manuvered and out-thought by the nationalists.

I think it has a lot to do with how the Republicans tried to emulate the USSR by killing their officers. It takes a few months to train a sailor in most tasks, but it takes years to get an officer up to speed.
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  #20  
Old 13 Jun 15, 15:00
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
It takes a few months to train a sailor in most tasks, but it takes years to get an officer up to speed.
Now that lends itself to all sorts of comment
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Old 13 Jun 15, 19:13
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Now that lends itself to all sorts of comment
Feel free.
This board isn't exactly taking off like a rocket.
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  #22  
Old 13 Jun 15, 19:15
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I'm actually very intrigued by the naval actions of this war. The info posted has been helpful.
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  #23  
Old 15 Jun 15, 03:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I think it has a lot to do with how the Republicans tried to emulate the USSR by killing their officers.
It went both ways. Don't forget this was a class war. part of the reason why the Republican armed forces were in difficulty in the beginning is that they tried to get rid one way or another of their officers, yes; but part of the reason why they did so isn't just that they wanted to emulate the USSR, it is that the officers mostly actually sided with the Nationalists. Even when an officer didn't desert his unit in the case of a unit deep in Republican territory and clearly siding with the Republic, it would be hard for the Republicans to say whether that officer was sincere in his support for the Republic.
That's why the amateurism of the first "columns" and makeshift brigades and militias and volunteer units. Things changed in a few months, both because of some natural selection (improvised commanders either being killed/defeated or surviving, getting a grip, learning on the job, and making half-decent officers) or because the government called back in service real officers.
As to the latter phenomenon, remember how, later on, the USSR itself called back to higher command officers that the purges had sidelined or demoted or even sentenced. Necessity prized skill, in both wars.


Quote:
It takes a few months to train a sailor in most tasks, but it takes years to get an officer up to speed.
Obviously.
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  #24  
Old 15 Jun 15, 10:02
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It would seem that air force officers tended to be more liberally minded but the Republicans alienated many by treating them in the same way as all the other officers
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Old 02 Jan 16, 19:44
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I studied English Literature at A-Level and had a leftist lecturer and a class mate who had read George Orwell. Both had read his "Homage to Catalonia" and I read it from their recommendation. This was nearly twenty years ago now and most of what I can remember concerns the Internacional Brigades (I think the Spanish spelling is correct) that Orwell served with and the rise of the 'professional' Republican Army that was developed during the war. I've a bit of interest int eh period and this thread has reminded me of the previously mentioned work so I may well re-read it.
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Old 04 Jan 16, 03:57
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I studied English Literature at A-Level and had a leftist lecturer and a class mate who had read George Orwell. Both had read his "Homage to Catalonia" and I read it from their recommendation. This was nearly twenty years ago now and most of what I can remember concerns the Internacional Brigades (I think the Spanish spelling is correct) that Orwell served with and the rise of the 'professional' Republican Army that was developed during the war. I've a bit of interest int eh period and this thread has reminded me of the previously mentioned work so I may well re-read it.
Orwell never served with the International Brigades, AFAIK. He was with the POUM militia. He did try to switch to the International Brigades, also to move to the Madrid front, but then bad things happened to the POUM. Then he was wounded. And did not remain in Spain for much longer.
But if you can show that he indeed joined one of the International Brigades, please let us know!
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Old 08 Jan 16, 15:10
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Orwell never served with the International Brigades, AFAIK. He was with the POUM militia. He did try to switch to the International Brigades, also to move to the Madrid front, but then bad things happened to the POUM. Then he was wounded. And did not remain in Spain for much longer.
But if you can show that he indeed joined one of the International Brigades, please let us know!
From the International Brigade Memorial Trust
The ILP contingent in Spain



George Orwell's account of his experiences in Spain has ensured that the role of the British Independent Labour Party contingent is widely known, though they numbered only a fraction of the number who fought with the International Brigades.

Approximately twenty-five volunteers left for Spain in January 1937 and fought with the POUM militia on the Aragon front. The first half of 1937 saw little action on the Aragon front leading some ILP volunteers, including Orwell, to consider joining the International Brigades in Madrid. However, the involvement of the ILP contingent in the fighting in Barcelona in early May 1937, when they sided with the Anarchists and POUM against the government forces made this out of the question. Instead, they returned to the front at Huesca, until the banning and suppression of the POUM in June meant that those with links to the organisation were in danger of arrest.

Most of the British group returned to the UK, though one member, Bob Smillie, was arrested and later died in prison of appendicitis.
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Old 12 Jan 16, 09:13
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Originally Posted by tcox View Post
From the International Brigade Memorial Trust
The ILP contingent in Spain



George Orwell's account of his experiences in Spain has ensured that the role of the British Independent Labour Party contingent is widely known, though they numbered only a fraction of the number who fought with the International Brigades.

Approximately twenty-five volunteers left for Spain in January 1937 and fought with the POUM militia on the Aragon front. The first half of 1937 saw little action on the Aragon front leading some ILP volunteers, including Orwell, to consider joining the International Brigades in Madrid. However, the involvement of the ILP contingent in the fighting in Barcelona in early May 1937, when they sided with the Anarchists and POUM against the government forces made this out of the question. Instead, they returned to the front at Huesca, until the banning and suppression of the POUM in June meant that those with links to the organisation were in danger of arrest.

Most of the British group returned to the UK, though one member, Bob Smillie, was arrested and later died in prison of appendicitis.
OK, thanks for confirming. Who knows what he would have thought of the International Brigades if he had managed to join them.
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Old 30 Jan 16, 20:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcox View Post
From the International Brigade Memorial Trust
The ILP contingent in Spain



George Orwell's account of his experiences in Spain has ensured that the role of the British Independent Labour Party contingent is widely known, though they numbered only a fraction of the number who fought with the International Brigades.

Approximately twenty-five volunteers left for Spain in January 1937 and fought with the POUM militia on the Aragon front. The first half of 1937 saw little action on the Aragon front leading some ILP volunteers, including Orwell, to consider joining the International Brigades in Madrid. However, the involvement of the ILP contingent in the fighting in Barcelona in early May 1937, when they sided with the Anarchists and POUM against the government forces made this out of the question. Instead, they returned to the front at Huesca, until the banning and suppression of the POUM in June meant that those with links to the organisation were in danger of arrest.

Most of the British group returned to the UK, though one member, Bob Smillie, was arrested and later died in prison of appendicitis.
Good post. +1

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Old 15 Feb 16, 05:47
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Originally Posted by tcox View Post
Warships of the Spanish Civil War. In my opinion it was the 2 heavy cruisers that made the difference even though one of them was sunk in 1938

http://www.kbismarck.com/mgl/spanishcivwar.htm

Ref the Nationalist cruisers.

Taken from the HMS Hood website is this memory from Dixie Dean, who was a famous soccer footballer of that time, and who served for a while on Hood during the Spanish Civil War.

"Some British Merchant ships were trying to get goods to the north Spanish ports, which were controlled by the Republicans. General Franco's Nationalist ships were trying to blockade the ports and stop the British ships getting in. Admiral Blake arrived in Hood and made it clear that he would stand no messing. But next time that the merchantmen appeared their cruiser Almirante Cervera trained her guns on the unarmed British ships. That was Admiral Blake's cue and he replied by training Hood's broadside on the Spanish warships. I never knew that Franco had a ship which could move so fast. Off they went and we didn't have any trouble from them again."
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