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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #61  
Old 23 Sep 15, 10:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
By this sort of reasoning, the fall of France in 1940 or the bombing of Pearl had obviously no impact on WWII, since Germany and Japan lost.

In whatever contest, by this reasoning, whatever the loser does has no impact.

In other words, you are equating "having impact" with "being successful". Not everyone would agree.
I, myself would gauge its effect as helping turn enlightened world opinion against fascism. The fascists were murderous brutes. That is what is implied and what everyone who saw it was exposed to and most agreed. Of course,some of the Loyalists were murderous brutes, too. To carry DN's reasoning a step further, since they lost, their murderousness is largely forgotten, and so becomes unimportant.

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  #62  
Old 23 Sep 15, 11:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desiree Clary View Post
I, myself would gauge its effect as helping turn enlightened world opinion against fascism. The fascists were murderous brutes. That is what is implied and what everyone who saw it was exposed to and most agreed. Of course,some of the Loyalists were murderous brutes, too. To carry DN's reasoning a step further, since they lost, their murderousness is largely forgotten, and so becomes unimportant.

Susie
Often (but not always) works the other way around - depends who gets to write the history in the long run.
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  #63  
Old 23 Sep 15, 11:43
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I'm sorry to have confused anyone..

but the brief here CLAERLY said..."REAL impact...not theoretical..

Readit if you don't beleive...right back on page one..
This is the question I was attmpting to answer. Reality as in money, guns, bullets, people...

Not opinion. Anyone can have that, and make no differnece whatsoever. On the other hand, opinions sometimes get bullets, bombs, et al...but in this case, considering the lack of support for the Government.. i would say..NO.
Apologies if you thought otherwise.

And REALLY...comparing the effect of a painting to the Fall of France was just an attempt to throw stones at a retreating enemy....and a very bad attempt at that...

Good try though. The Fall of Frnace and Peral Harbour were epoch changing events..

Picasso or any other art work, does not compete...and it's comparing apple with spinach anyway.

And if you want to make fun of my lack of art knowledgde...be brave and PM me, rather than using this forum for childish gossip....
Disappointing from a supposedly eductaed intellectual.

Desiree, I note, has not sunk to this level. Maybe an Art degree makes her a better person

one last thing...haven't the educated here heard of Oscar Wilde?...I'll give you a quicK quote....
"All art is essentially useless."

Now I can leave the thread...I'll still be looking though.

Christopher
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  #64  
Old 23 Sep 15, 11:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
but the brief here CLAERLY said..."REAL impact...not theoretical..

Readit if you don't beleive...right back on page one..
This is the question I was attmpting to answer. Reality as in money, guns, bullets, people...

Not opinion. Anyone can have that, and make no differnece whatsoever. On the other hand, opinions sometimes get bullets, bombs, et al...but in this case, considering the lack of support for the Government.. i would say..NO.
You are just wrong.
Read up about the Whitechapel exhibition of that painting. It actually garnered concrete support for the Republican side in the war. Physical objects, and money. Not just opinions.
Naturally, that did not result in the Republic winning, which leads us to the following:


Quote:
And REALLY...comparing the effect of a painting to the Fall of France was just an attempt to throw stones at a retreating enemy....and a very bad attempt at that...

Good try though. The Fall of Frnace and Peral Harbour were epoch changing events..
Exactly. That's the reason I chose them. Because by the one standard you chose, i.e., eventual victory in the war, those "epoch changing events" were just as meaningless as the painting (which also should have served the side that actually lost the war).
In other words, your highlighting that those are enormously important events only goes to show how flawed your standard, your reasoning are.

Impact, you are telling us by calling "epoch changing" those events that nevertheless should have served the side that eventually lost the war, is not the same as success.

Therefore, unless you want to apply double standards, impact is not the same as success in the case of that painting, too.

It's not a matter of art appreciation or tastes for abstract art. It's a matter of plain logic. You might wish to look up what a reductio ad absurdum is.
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  #65  
Old 23 Sep 15, 13:56
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The effect would mostly have been on world opinion and it probably has a bigger effect now than it did then because it is commonly seen as a generic anti-war protest. Don't forget that it was displayed in Paris, not Spain. Also, although it was praised by critics it was criticized by Marxist groups.
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  #66  
Old 23 Sep 15, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
Don't forget that it was displayed in Paris, not Spain. Also, although it was praised by critics it was criticized by Marxist groups.
As Michele pointed out, it was exhibited in Britain and elsewhere to huge crowds
Quote:
Guernica, for which Picasso was paid Fr200,000 for his costs by the Spanish Republican government, was one of the few major paintings which were not sold direct from artist to his exclusive contracted art dealer and friend, Paul Rosenberg.[28]
However, after its exhibition Rosenberg organised a four-man extravaganza Scandinavian tour of 118 works by Picasso, Matisse, Braque and Henri Laurens. The main attraction was Guernica, and from January to April 1938 the tour visited Oslo, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Götenborg. In September 1938 the painting travelled to England, exhibited in London's Whitechapel Art Gallery organized by Roland Penrose with Clement Attlee, where it arrived on 30 September 1938, the same day the Munich Agreement was signed by the leaders of the United Kingdom, France, Italy, and Germany. It then travelled onwards to Leeds, Liverpool and in early 1939 Manchester. There, Manchester Foodship For Spain, a group of artists and activists engaged in sending aid to the people of Spain, exhibited the painting in the HE Nunn & Co Ford automobile showroom for two weeks.[29] It then returned briefly to France.
-Wikipedia, but it says much the same in Picasso's War http://www.amazon.com/Picassos-War-R.../dp/0525946802

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  #67  
Old 23 Sep 15, 17:53
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Be that as it may, wooden wonder, but, ask yourself, could you tell whether it was Spain? or more to the point, "Guernica"

No..not without a title..

I'm running rings around you people with this one.
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  #68  
Old 23 Sep 15, 17:55
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Did Picasso's 'Guernica' have any real impact on the civil war?

There is no solid evidence to show that it did.
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  #69  
Old 23 Sep 15, 17:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Be that as it may, wooden wonder, but, ask yourself, could you tell whether it was Spain? or more to the point, "Guernica"

No..not without a title..

I'm running rings around you people with this one.
"Blessed are those who run in circles around others, for they shall be known as big wheels."
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  #70  
Old 23 Sep 15, 17:59
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And stick to the point...

Thi sdebate is about REAL help that the painting supposedly or not..provided...so far, I have yet to recieve a single reply from anyone that positively or conclusively prooves this painting did anything at all materially to provide the spanish people with REAL help...

You guys are just posters wishing to score pointys among yourselves...not to answer the question.

Doesnt feel good to be made a fool of by your own actions, does it?

People are avoiding the issue, it's not about cubism or recognitsability of art, its about quantifying any help the painting may have given.

Of course, admitting I'm correct,( which according to the brief I AM) would result in an artistic philistine scoring moral points in your own backyard. And none of the regulars seem to want to qantify anything ...just argue artistic points concerning interpretation.

Time to get the humble pie out again,,,and Desiree is sinking to the same level as well.

Its about 5-0 to the Philistines at the moment.

Where is David when you need him!!

Art is useless, as wilde said it was...and your mahinations are proving the point. HOW MUCH material help did this painting provide?..how many aircraft, soldiers, tankettes, money, did this painting directly raise. None. it was a propaganda tool, and therefore, useless in real terms..

Stop steering this debate away from the outline given in post no. one.

I'm going to report this thread soon, and get it shut down....

answer the question, or back down and gossip later among yourselves...

You had me before when callng me a philistine. so cut your losses or get the thread shutdown.

Last edited by Drusus Nero; 23 Sep 15 at 18:06..
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  #71  
Old 23 Sep 15, 18:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
And stick to the point...

Thi sdebate is about REAL help that the painting supposedly or not..provided...so far, I have yet to recieve a single reply from anyone that positively or conclusively prooves this painting did anything at all materially to provide the spanish people with REAL help...

You guys are just posters wishing to score pointys among yourselves...not to answer the question.

Doesnt feel good to be made a fool of by your own actions, does it?

People are avoiding the issue, it's not about cubism or recognitsavbil;ity of art, its about quantifying any help the painting may have given.

Of course, admitting I'm correct, which according to the breif I AM would result in an artistic philistine scoring moral points in your own backyard. And none of the regulars seem to want to qantify anything ...just argue artistic points concerning interpretation.
As I quoted, " There, Manchester Foodship For Spain, a group of artists and activists engaged in sending aid to the people of Spain, exhibited the painting in the HE Nunn & Co Ford automobile showroom for two weeks.[29] It then returned briefly to France."

Enough for me
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  #72  
Old 23 Sep 15, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
And stick to the point...

Thi sdebate is about REAL help that the painting supposedly or not..provided...so far, I have yet to recieve a single reply from anyone that positively or conclusively prooves this painting did anything at all materially to provide the spanish people with REAL help...

You guys are just posters wishing to score pointys among yourselves...not to answer the question.

Doesnt feel good to be made a fool of by your own actions, does it?

People are avoiding the issue, it's not about cubism or recognitsability of art, its about quantifying any help the painting may have given.

Of course, admitting I'm correct,( which according to the brief I AM) would result in an artistic philistine scoring moral points in your own backyard. And none of the regulars seem to want to qantify anything ...just argue artistic points concerning interpretation.

Time to get the humble pie out again,,,and Desiree is sinking to the same level as well.

Its about 5-0 to the Philistines at the moment.

Where is David when you need him!!

Art is useless, as wilde said it was...and your mahinations are proving the point. HOW MUCH material help did this painting provide?..how many aircraft, soldiers, tankettes, money, did this painting directly raise. None. it was a propaganda tool, and therefore, useless in real terms..

Stop steering this debate away from the outline given in post no. one.

I'm going to report this thread soon, and get it shut down....

answer the question, or back down and gossip later among yourselves...

You had me before when callng me a philistine. so cut your losses or get the thread shutdown.
Oh believe me this thread is being watched very closely.

Let's rein it in, get back on topic and cease the personal comments.

That goes for everyone, including you.

Thank you ACG Staff
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  #73  
Old 23 Sep 15, 18:20
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Three off topic posts which, one of which contained personal comments about another poster were deleted.
Further posts of this ilk will result in further sanctions
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  #74  
Old 28 Sep 15, 03:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
And stick to the point...

Thi sdebate is about REAL help that the painting supposedly or not..provided...so far, I have yet to recieve a single reply from anyone that positively or conclusively prooves this painting did anything at all materially to provide the spanish people with REAL help...

...

Art is useless, as wilde said it was...and your mahinations are proving the point. HOW MUCH material help did this painting provide?..how many aircraft, soldiers, tankettes, money, did this painting directly raise. None. it was a propaganda tool, and therefore, useless in real terms..

Stop steering this debate away from the outline given in post no. one.
I can only reiterate what I have written in post #64, above - that is, before this groundless rant. A reply was provided in that post, to the question of whether this painting made a direct, concrete, actual, factual contribution to the Republican side in this war.

I wrote in that post:
"Read up about the Whitechapel exhibition of that painting. It actually garnered concrete support for the Republican side in the war. Physical objects, and money. Not just opinions."

In this post, I will also provide a useful link:
http://fortnightlyreview.co.uk/2013/...ming-guernica/ I find it particularly moving that a visitor to that exhibition could contribute to supporting the Republic by donating a pair of boots.

I will also point out again that Désirée Clary has mentioned money raised through other exhibitions, and used to fund shipments of food to the Spanish Republic.

So:

Was the money raised in this way a significant amount?
No, of course. It would never match the kind of money entire states could spend, discretionarily in the case of dictatorships, to support a side in that civil war. On the other hand, I suspect it was more money than any funding raised through pro-Nationalist art exhibitions.

Did the painting allow the purchase of a fighter, tankette or rifle?
No. As should be known, funds raised in countries like Britain could not be spent that way, because of the arms embargo that hamstrung the Republic. Some operators for the Republic resorted to smuggling, but that was risky and could well result in a loss. Sending boots, food, ambulances and the like, however, could be done, was done, and undoubtedly helped the Republic.

Did Guernica have an impact, considering that the Republic lost the war?
If we answer "no" based on that principle, then of course, as already mentioned, the fall of France and Pearl Harbor had no impact on WWII; because Germany and Japan lost. This should make it evident even to 12-year-olds that that metrics has to be flawed. Utterly and ridiculously.

Was the concrete, physical, tangible contribution of boots or food the real objective of the painting and of its exhibitions?
No, of course. The point was software, not hardware, as is always the case with propaganda (and art serving a specific purpose is propaganda). The point was raising awareness in the democracies about the dangers of Fascism, about the brutality of war; the point was increasing sympathy for the Republic.

Can we measure this sort of thing?
We could, if extensive interviews, polling, etc. had been taken. They weren't. So what we know is that thousands of young men from France and Britain volunteered for the International Brigades. We can bet not one of them joined solely for having seen the painting. We cannot rule out, however, that seeing the painting contributed, in some measure, to the decision. Ditto for the decision of many more people to send money, food etc. to the Republic.

So you have your answers. I would very much appreciate it if nobody now posted some inane and false posts claiming that no direct, concrete contribution came from this painting, thus demonstrating that they can't be bothered to read and get some accurate information.
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Old 28 Sep 15, 04:59
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