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  #16  
Old 24 May 15, 03:55
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Draco is forgetting some things

1)On 1 september thousands of V 4 missiles are fired on London from the German bases in Antarctica,causing a lot of panic in both Ends (West and East)

2)On 2 september,the German stealth fleet ,commanded by admiral von Sinkenschippen (courtesy from Allo Allo) appears at Scapa Flow and sinks the Home Fleet.Von Sinkenschippen receives the Knight's Cross and a signed picture made by the Führer (it belonged to a collection Adolf was stuck with before 1914)

3)At the same time,the SS Division England (commander :OGF Lord HawHaw) is marching to Whitehall and forms a new government (Prime Minister :Mosley)

4)Something happens in the US :

The SS Division Mexico (commander : GF Pancho Villa) is advancing from Moralia to the border with the US and occupies Arizona,etc (courtesy from Draco) and is taking ...draconian measures (after a few days there is a shortage of cords),but Barry Goldwater is organising the resistance.

The SS Division America (staff is originating from Fuller Massachsetts) ,commanded by GF Patrick Henry IV is marching to Washington with as slogan : Give me victory or give me death,the inhabitant of the Oval Office is fleeing on wheelchair and H.Ford becomes president and Lindbergh vice president(for a few months til the mysterious death of Ford) :US are declaring war on Britain :the DOW is read by the minister of propaganda:Peter Hof .
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  #17  
Old 24 May 15, 14:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
and a fair bit of hind sight...
Nothing to bad so far...

Is the Royal Navy willing to part with 24 Swordfish? It had less than 150 of them in active service AFAIK on September 3rd 1939. Also if these are British controlled units thats going to tip Germany off really quick...

Also why would Poland think it really needs these torpedo bombers? the main issue for Poland is not Germanys Navy but the Army. I do not really recall much of an invasion from the see, a few naval gun fire operations sure in support of ground troops.

Thats just silly. Why won't they declare war?

And Germany wont notice an entire French corps is being transfers to a rather odd spot? And will Romania allow this?
Question did they actually know when Germany is going to attack? If not thats rather silly of you to think they will be able to move forces into position with short notice...
Whats Russia going to do about this? Thats going to give them bad vibes...


Why would Finland do this?
A some what more sensible thing to do, but one that still has issues? like how are they going to do this? Germany is kinda in the way...

How do they know when Germany is going to attack? I.e. when to set sail?

Rather rosy picture don't ya think? Some how I doubt it's going to go as you think it's going to go...


Keep in mind France could hardly fight it's way out of a paper bag at this time frame, not that it did not have the equipment, but it lacked the training, experience and communications ability's to do much, and it was largely thoughs faults that spelt it's downfall less than a year later.

IIRC I once read a excerpt of France training of the time frame, for a one year conscript (prewar) about half of it was involved in what could effectively be termed as leave (pity I can not find it at the moment), so not much time for actual military training.
The poor Polish navy spent a considerable amount to acquire 5 DDs and subs, etc, Poland; England and France know that Germany depends on Swedish iron and copper ores, Bofors guns, etc, Finnish nickel, Lumber, etc, Soviet grain, chromium, manganese, etc, and Japanese soy, etc, sent through the USSR.
Providing Poland and Finland with 29 easily produced Swordfish and torpedoes and training Polish and Finnish pilots to attack German merchant and warships is the best investment Britain can make. It is equivalent to acquiring 2 distant bases in the Baltic and is the only way to affect German production and inflict considerable losses on Germany. It is a million times more effective and less costly for Britain (especially in lives) than bombing German industry.

Most importantly, these planes and the fact that the Polish fleet remains in the Baltic help to achieve allied control of the Baltic, thus securing invaluable allied supplies and reinforcements for Poland.

Why declare war and start losing ships and men when you cannot attack and before one even mobilizes? It is asenine to do it. It is just as absurd to waste the first invalauble days issuing an ultimatum and waiting for it to elapse, instead of executing previously planned maneuvers to gain invaluable locations to save invaluable Poland and doom Germany from the outset.
Wars should be won by good planning before the war not by promptly losing ones allies and fortuitously gaining formidable allies, outproducing Germany manytimes and blundering for years with heavy losses, until Germany is exhausted.

Last edited by Draco; 24 May 15 at 14:50..
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  #18  
Old 24 May 15, 16:45
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The poor Polish navy spent a considerable amount to acquire 5 DDs and subs, etc, Poland; England and France know that Germany depends on Swedish iron and copper ores, Bofors guns, etc, Finnish nickel, Lumber, etc, Soviet grain, chromium, manganese, etc, and Japanese soy, etc, sent through the USSR.
Providing Poland and Finland with 29 easily produced Swordfish and torpedoes and training Polish and Finnish pilots to attack German merchant and warships is the best investment Britain can make. It is equivalent to acquiring 2 distant bases in the Baltic and is the only way to affect German production and inflict considerable losses on Germany. It is a million times more effective and less costly for Britain (especially in lives) than bombing German industry.

Most importantly, these planes and the fact that the Polish fleet remains in the Baltic help to achieve allied control of the Baltic, thus securing invaluable allied supplies and reinforcements for Poland.

Why declare war and start losing ships and men when you cannot attack and before one even mobilizes? It is asenine to do it. It is just as absurd to waste the first invalauble days issuing an ultimatum and waiting for it to elapse, instead of executing previously planned maneuvers to gain invaluable locations to save invaluable Poland and doom Germany from the outset.
Wars should be won by good planning before the war not by promptly losing ones allies and fortuitously gaining formidable allies, outproducing Germany manytimes and blundering for years with heavy losses, until Germany is exhausted.


Are you Familiar with the adage "No good plan survives contact with the enemy"?

No mater how good your planing is one is always going to have to make changes. In any case I do not believe that Britain and France where fully prepared in 1939 to deal with Germany in any event. I mean look at what happened to France roughly 8 months later...

Ok lets put thoughs 30ish torpedo bombers in place but Germany notice them training and puts a Fighter Gruppen on the job to deal with them? So on September 1st they get visited by a few Staffeln of BF 110Cs (or 109Es)

Also what is the Royal navy going to do now that you sold roughly 1/6th of it's carrier aircraft?...

In the end it would not matter to much as after a week the much of the Polish Air force was destroyed and a bit over a week later what was left fled to Romania.

Although France and Britain made an agreement with Poland earlier in the year and Britain made a separate one just a week before the war started (which delayed the invasion a few days), on September 4th both (France and Britain) decided in their own meetings that they where not ready and could do little to help Poland at the time.


Edit: For information Royal Navy Carriers and their aircraft compliment at the start of the War.

Via Niehorster's own site.
HMS Arc Royal
800 Squadron 6x Skua, 3x Roc
803 Squadron 6x Skua, 3x Roc
810 Squadron 12x Swordfish
820 Squadron 9x Swordfish
821 Squadron 9x Swordfish

HMS Furious
None, acting as Training ship, in October equipped with 816 and 818 Squadrons each with 9x Swordfish

HMS Courageous
811 Squadron 12x Swordfish
822 Squadron 12x Swordfish

HMS Hermes
814 Squadron 12x Swordfish

HMS Eagle
813 Squadron 9x Swordfish
824 Squadron 9x Swordfish

HMS Glorious
802 Squadron 9x Sea Gladiators
812 Squadron 12x Swordfish
823 Squadron 12x Swordfish
825 Squadron 12x Swordfish

That's largely it for combat units, a few can be found among cruiser units as float planes, and probably a few more in training units...

Last edited by Nebfer; 24 May 15 at 17:51..
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  #19  
Old 24 May 15, 19:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Wars should be won by good planning before the war not by promptly losing ones allies and fortuitously gaining formidable allies, outproducing Germany manytimes and blundering for years with heavy losses, until Germany is exhausted.
EDIT MINE:

Draco,
I'm not much on WWII logistics, but I do find it interesting that you spend so much time building so many threads.
Within our ACW family, we have a few who post from the viewpoint that the Southern Cause did not lose in the Civil War. They were simply dominated by an enemy that could outproduce them in every category of warfare necessities.

Could a part of your motivation be the conviction that the Axis Cause suffered the same type of demise?
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  #20  
Old 24 May 15, 19:55
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The S lost despite facing useless N generals and having excellent infantry and cavalry because the S started the war without adequate preparation and planning and in the wrong way and place, was a lousy diplomat (no allies, not even Native Americans) and because Johnston, Lee, etc, made one huge blunder after another, not because it was outproduced.

The geniuses placed their capital adjacent to DC, used bronze cannon centuries after Akhbar had used steel cannon and while their navy had steel clad ships. Attacked the enemy where he was strongest, used absurd battle tactics and lost more men to exhaustion, disease, exposure, lousy medical treatment and malnutrition than to fighting.

Sun Tsu, Alexander, Ghengis, Akhbar, Archytas and 100 other brilliant strategists would have defeated the N within 6 months with the resources available to the S at the time.

Germany did not lose because it was outproduced, it lost because Hitler wasted the LW pointlessly over a very strong Britain he could not and needed not invade. Had he attacked in extremely weak N Africa instead, he would have defeated Britain in months and gained access to the ME oil and allies he desperately needed.

Poland did not lose because it was weaker than Germany (it certainly wasn't when one considers her allies). It lost because it and its allies did not get together to win the inevitable war with good planning and preparation before it started.

Bad planning tends to be much shorter lived than good planning.
Sabutai's complicated invasions with simultaneous advances by distant columns, the sickle cut, etc, endured much better than Norway, Dakar, Market-Garden, etc, in WW II or Gettysburg.

Last edited by Draco; 24 May 15 at 20:12..
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  #21  
Old 24 May 15, 20:11
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So the Allies planned poorly.
The Germans planned poorly.
Whose left?
How do you think Japan fared in the planning pool?

wfi
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  #22  
Old 24 May 15, 20:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The S lost despite facing useless N generals and having excellent infantry and cavalry because the S started the war without adequate preparation and planning and in the wrong way and place, was a lousy diplomat (no allies, not even Native Americans) and because Johnston, Lee, etc, made one huge blunder after another, not because it was outproduced.

The geniuses placed their capital adjacent to DC, used bronze cannon centuries after Akhbar had used steel cannon and while their navy had steel clad ships. Attacked the enemy where he was strongest, used absurd battle tactics and lost more men to exhaustion, disease, exposure, lousy medical treatment and malnutrition than to fighting.

Sun Tsu, Alexander, Ghengis, Akhbar, Archytas and 100 other brilliant strategists would have defeated the N within 6 months with the resources available to the S at the time.

Germany did not lose because it was outproduced, it lost because Hitler wasted the LW pointlessly over a very strong Britain he could not and needed not invade. Had he attacked in extremely weak N Africa instead, he would have defeated Britain in months and gained access to the ME oil and allies he desperately needed.

Poland did not lose because it was weaker than Germany (it certainly wasn't when one considers her allies). It lost because it and its allies did not get together to win the inevitable war with good planning and preparation before it started.

Bad planning tends to be much shorter lived than good planning.
Sabutai's complicated invasions with simultaneous advances by distant columns, the sickle cut, etc, endured much better than Norway, Dakar, Market-Garden, etc, in WW II or Gettysburg.
This shows an ignorance of the ACW. The Union might have done so-so in the East on land but elsewhere they were taking the Confederacy apart in short order.
The Mississippi River fell to the Union almost a year before Gettysburg. The last remaining hold out, Vicksburg fell concurrent with the loss by the South at Gettysburg.
At the same time, the USN was ever tightening a blockade of the South strangling it economically.
No one general on either side would have changed the outcome. The South was further hit by its internal political structure that put the states ahead of the central government.
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  #23  
Old 24 May 15, 20:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
This shows an ignorance of the ACW. The Union might have done so-so in the East on land but elsewhere they were taking the Confederacy apart in short order.
The Mississippi River fell to the Union almost a year before Gettysburg. The last remaining hold out, Vicksburg fell concurrent with the loss by the South at Gettysburg.
At the same time, the USN was ever tightening a blockade of the South strangling it economically.
No one general on either side would have changed the outcome. The South was further hit by its internal political structure that put the states ahead of the central government.
I think this video spells it out rather plainly
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Old 24 May 15, 22:09
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I was afraid this would happen when I made that post.

Deep Breath: Now I have to defend Draco. He did not bring up the ACW. I did. I used it only as a reference to the OP and his approach to history. In all honesty, I knew it could look like a trap, and that was not my intent. Draco started this thread. IMO, he has defended his viewpoint on the OP. I don't have to agree with him to respect his right to post. If he wishes to discuss the ACW, we know he can create threads. Personally, if he has interest in the subject, I wish he would join one of the existing threads.
I feel I forced him into a CW response, and that is not the point of his OP.
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  #25  
Old 25 May 15, 00:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
I was afraid this would happen when I made that post.

Deep Breath: Now I have to defend Draco. He did not bring up the ACW. I did. I used it only as a reference to the OP and his approach to history. In all honesty, I knew it could look like a trap, and that was not my intent. Draco started this thread. IMO, he has defended his viewpoint on the OP. I don't have to agree with him to respect his right to post. If he wishes to discuss the ACW, we know he can create threads. Personally, if he has interest in the subject, I wish he would join one of the existing threads.
I feel I forced him into a CW response, and that is not the point of his OP.
Hal
He certainly has a right to respond, but if his response is (and was) incorrect he is going to get called for it.
I haven't bothered to smack him down over all the mistakes he's spewed in attributing various abilities to historical strategic thinkers. Maybe if I get a



As all I currently have is an octagonal tuit...
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  #26  
Old 25 May 15, 00:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
He certainly has a right to respond, but if his response is (and was) incorrect he is going to get called for it.
I haven't bothered to smack him down over all the mistakes he's spewed in attributing various abilities to historical strategic thinkers. Maybe if I get a



As all I currently have is an octagonal tuit...
Understood, and I agree. I just did want him to be faced with the ACW unless he brought it up.
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  #27  
Old 25 May 15, 10:38
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So the Allies planned poorly.
The Germans planned poorly.
Whose left?
How do you think Japan fared in the planning pool?

wfi
The only good strategists were Finland & Greece against Italy, not Germany

Japan was the worst strategist, it just did well because of extremely poor allied deployment in late 1941.
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Old 27 May 15, 13:26
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Occupying nearby Denmark on 1 Sept, 1941 with a carefully planned operation, while the LW & WM are heavily engaged in Poland and rapidly consuming limited bomb and shell stores is an order of magnitude easier and more productive than occupying remote, frigid and mountanous Norway after losing valuable Poland and after allowing Germany to invade Denmark and to replenish munition stores and while the LW and WM are completely idle and itching for a fight.

The narrow Danish Peninsula and Baltic Islands are easy to supply and extremely defensible with French and royal navy and RAF support and should Germany declare war on the W allies, it would have to start fighting in 3 fronts, while being bombed from Denmark, Poland, France and Britain.

The few U-boats and raiders in the Atlantic are denied access to Kiel and the KM Baltic fleet is sealed in for extermination withouth the posibility of maneuvering. Most importantly, Poland can be readily supplied and Germany cannot receive raw materials either through the Baltic or the North sea from the first days of the invasion of Poland.
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Old 27 May 15, 13:37
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Why is Poland valuable to Norway?
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Old 27 May 15, 15:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The geniuses placed their capital adjacent to DC, used bronze cannon centuries after Akhbar had used steel cannon and while their navy had steel clad ships. Attacked the enemy where he was strongest, used absurd battle tactics and lost more men to exhaustion, disease, exposure, lousy medical treatment and malnutrition than to fighting.
Bronze has some advantages over steel, chiefly you can tell if it's going to bust a lot easier than Iron or steel cannons will, as they had a tendency to burst suddenly and with out warning, plus AFAIK the manor in which they field was different, Iron "shattered", Bronze split.

The Main advantages Iron had over Bronze was that it was a lot cheaper and could make a lighter gun (due to it being ~10% lighter than Bronze, though early on that was not available but by this time frame Iron had improved enough to due so).

Also loses due to "exhaustion, disease, medical treatment and malnutrition" where very common back then, even Sun Tsu would of lost a fair number of men in similar circumstances, in any war lasting more than a month or two. Particularly when your factoring in a frontage of thousands of miles that ranges from deserts to mountains to plains to forests to swamps and jungles.

Quote:
Sun Tsu, Alexander, Ghengis, Akhbar, Archytas and 100 other brilliant strategists would have defeated the N within 6 months with the resources available to the S at the time.
Some how I seriously doubt that Sun Tsu or the like would of defeated the North in 6 months, or where significantly better strategists than their counter parts in the 1860s.

Quote:
Germany did not lose because it was outproduced, it lost because Hitler wasted the LW pointlessly over a very strong Britain he could not and needed not invade. Had he attacked in extremely weak N Africa instead, he would have defeated Britain in months and gained access to the ME oil and allies he desperately needed.
No Germany was defeated because it lost Strategically, it could not keep up industrially and with the shear manpower advantages the allies had. Germany was Strong enough and Good enough tactically to have lasted as long as they did.

Quote:
Poland did not lose because it was weaker than Germany (it certainly wasn't when one considers her allies). It lost because it and its allies did not get together to win the inevitable war with good planning and preparation before it started.
Her Allies decided in the first few days of the war that they where not ready to do anything and hence they did little to save Poland. And France was still not ready some 8 months later when Germany came knocking...
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