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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #1  
Old 22 May 15, 15:34
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The Allies don't declare war on Germany, siply act in 1939

The allies had impresive ressources and Germany was quite weak in 1939. However, the allies declared war on Sept 3, did nothing substantial, Poland was ruined, the allies began began losing ships and planes and France lost and had to pay heavy reparations for declaring war. An incredibly incompetent reaction to German invasion of Poland.

In this scenario French, Polish and British generals and admirals use their brains and considerable resources.

Starting in March 1939 the allies prepare this plan in the event of an invasion of Poland.

1) Polish pilots start training immediately to attack ships day and night with Sworfish and torpedoes. 24 Swordfish and 120 torpedoes will be deployed and hidden in several locations throughout Poland. In the event of an invasion, these planes will attack KM ships attacking Poland and throughout the Baltic (including Kiel) on the first nights of the invasion. Poland also received 24 Hurricanes and an equal number of MS.406s and Blenheims in June 1939. These planes will be camoufflaged along the Polish-Romanian & Polish Latvian borders and first engage on the 3rd dawn of the invasion. 24 crated Hurricanes hidden throughout Poland will begin to be assembled 1 at a time on the day of the invasion.

2) France and Britain will not declare war on Germany, they will deploy rapidly.

3) 3 French divisions will deploy by train to the Romanian-Polish border on the day of the invasion. 50 allied fighters and 30 twin engine bombers also deploy to the same area. Romania is France's ally and agrees to allow troop and plane deployment (just like it allowed Polish troops and gold to be evacuated through it).

4) French and British forces will occupy Denmark and the Dutch coast and airfields on the day of the invasion. 100 each Hurricanes, MS.406 and twin engine bombers will arrive in Holland and the same numbers in Denmark. 24 Swordfish will also arrive in Denmark on the first day. Planes continue arriving the following days.

4) A large war fleet, including troops transports, tankers, etc, will enter the Baltic on the night of the invasion and occupy Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania on the 2nd day.

5) A deal is closed with Finland, which will supply 3 divisions armed by the French and 24 pilots flying British planes to help Poland fight Germany, in exchange for immediate allied support and materiel in case of a Soviet or German invasion of Finland. The allied and Finnish fleets will transport the 3 divisions to Latvia within 5 days of Germany invading Poland. In addition, Finland will receive 5 Swordfish, 30 torpedoes and 5 Blenheims to attack ships transporting ore, etc, to Germany from Sweden. These bombers will operate from Finnish bases.

6) On the 3th day of the invasion Britain and France will begin delivering fighters, twin engine bombers, trucks, fieldguns, tanks, ammo, fuel, etc, to Poland. These fighters will cause heavy losses of German bombers and the bombers will cause considerable chaos in German supply lines.

7) Before the invasion, when German forces concentrate along the Polish borders, the whole Polish fleet will sail at flank speed to Finland and remain there, until the large allied fleet enters the Baltic and controls it. It will then join the large fleet on the 3rd day and start sinking U-boats, etc,

The Invasion:

On the night of 1 Sept, 1939 Polish pilots torpedo and sink or seriously damage Schleswig-Holstein, 6 large cargo and transport ships, 5 other large warships, and 2 DDs off Poland, at anchor in Kiev and other ports and throughout the Baltic. 2 Swordfish are lost. 4 planes perform 2 missions in the same night.

With a large allied fleet in the Baltic and allied planes in Denmark, Holland, Romania & the Baltic Countries, if Germany attacks or declares war on Anglo-French forces it will immediately lose its remaining fleet, access to Swedish iron & copper ore, Bofors guns, etc, and begin losing bombers, etc, rapidly. Hitler hesitates to attack anybody other than the Poles.

12 cargo ships, 5 German DDs and a CL are sunk or damaged on the second night. 13 cargo ships on the 3rd night.

On the 4th day of the invasion Germany loses 47 planes (10 Hs 123, 19 Ju-87, 3 Bf 109 and 15 He 111) and even more on the 5th day. The Panzer divisions are left without supplies when twin engine bombers disrupt supply lines and 136 tanks are destroyed by AT rifles and guns, 75 mm guns, 82 mm mortars, Molotov cocktails, etc,

The 5th day is even worse. A Finnish division is already fighting and Anglo-French forces in the Baltic, Denmark, Baltic Countries, etc, are growing stronger while Hitler's confidence wanes. More twin engine planes arrive in Poland from Denmark and fighters by carrier inthe Baltic Countries.
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  #2  
Old 22 May 15, 15:53
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Presumably the 3 French divisions travelling to Poland by train will be disguised as nuns as they travel through Germany.
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  #3  
Old 22 May 15, 16:07
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Once again, Draco cannot grasp that air power is anything beyond plane + pilot.

Even if the UK & France wanted to hand over millions of dollars of hardware without a thought for their political careers, the planes would be useless without mechanics, tools, spare part inventories, and trained ground crew, doctrine, trained command staff, and a dozen other items of infrastructure that do not exist in Poland n 1939.

Not to mention finding 20,000 plus-size nuns habits.
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  #4  
Old 22 May 15, 16:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grishnak View Post
Presumably the 3 French divisions travelling to Poland by train will be disguised as nuns as they travel through Germany.
Foolishness. The Germans would spot their hairy legs, and detain them at once!

Wouldn't they have been better employed occupying Pantellaria anyway? It is a known fact that Italian troops would never shoot at nuns.
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  #5  
Old 22 May 15, 16:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The allies had impresive ressources and Germany was quite weak in 1939. However, the allies declared war on Sept 3, did nothing substantial, Poland was ruined, the allies began began losing ships and planes and France lost and had to pay heavy reparations for declaring war. An incredibly incompetent reaction to German invasion of Poland.

In this scenario French, Polish and British generals and admirals use their brains and considerable resources.

Starting in March 1939 the allies prepare this plan in the event of an invasion of Poland.

1) Polish pilots start training immediately to attack ships day and night with Sworfish and torpedoes. 24 Swordfish and 120 torpedoes will be deployed and hidden in several locations throughout Poland. In the event of an invasion, these planes will attack KM ships attacking Poland and throughout the Baltic (including Kiel) on the first nights of the invasion. Poland also received 24 Hurricanes and an equal number of MS.406s and Blenheims in June 1939. These planes will be camoufflaged along the Polish-Romanian & Polish Latvian borders and first engage on the 3rd dawn of the invasion. 24 crated Hurricanes hidden throughout Poland will begin to be assembled 1 at a time on the day of the invasion.

2) France and Britain will not declare war on Germany, they will deploy rapidly.

3) 3 French divisions will deploy by train to the Romanian-Polish border on the day of the invasion. 50 allied fighters and 30 twin engine bombers also deploy to the same area. Romania is France's ally and agrees to allow troop and plane deployment (just like it allowed Polish troops and gold to be evacuated through it).

4) French and British forces will occupy Denmark and the Dutch coast and airfields on the day of the invasion. 100 each Hurricanes, MS.406 and twin engine bombers will arrive in Holland and the same numbers in Denmark. 24 Swordfish will also arrive in Denmark on the first day. Planes continue arriving the following days.

4) A large war fleet, including troops transports, tankers, etc, will enter the Baltic on the night of the invasion and occupy Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania on the 2nd day.

5) A deal is closed with Finland, which will supply 3 divisions armed by the French and 24 pilots flying British planes to help Poland fight Germany, in exchange for immediate allied support and materiel in case of a Soviet or German invasion of Finland. The allied and Finnish fleets will transport the 3 divisions to Latvia within 5 days of Germany invading Poland. In addition, Finland will receive 5 Swordfish, 30 torpedoes and 5 Blenheims to attack ships transporting ore, etc, to Germany from Sweden. These bombers will operate from Finnish bases.

6) On the 3th day of the invasion Britain and France will begin delivering fighters, twin engine bombers, trucks, fieldguns, tanks, ammo, fuel, etc, to Poland. These fighters will cause heavy losses of German bombers and the bombers will cause considerable chaos in German supply lines.

7) Before the invasion, when German forces concentrate along the Polish borders, the whole Polish fleet will sail at flank speed to Finland and remain there, until the large allied fleet enters the Baltic and controls it. It will then join the large fleet on the 3rd day and start sinking U-boats, etc,

The Invasion:

On the night of 1 Sept, 1939 Polish pilots torpedo and sink or seriously damage Schleswig-Holstein, 6 large cargo and transport ships, 5 other large warships, and 2 DDs off Poland, at anchor in Kiev and other ports and throughout the Baltic. 2 Swordfish are lost. 4 planes perform 2 missions in the same night.

With a large allied fleet in the Baltic and allied planes in Denmark, Holland, Romania & the Baltic Countries, if Germany attacks or declares war on Anglo-French forces it will immediately lose its remaining fleet, access to Swedish iron & copper ore, Bofors guns, etc, and begin losing bombers, etc, rapidly. Hitler hesitates to attack anybody other than the Poles.

12 cargo ships, 5 German DDs and a CL are sunk or damaged on the second night. 13 cargo ships on the 3rd night.

On the 4th day of the invasion Germany loses 47 planes (10 Hs 123, 19 Ju-87, 3 Bf 109 and 15 He 111) and even more on the 5th day. The Panzer divisions are left without supplies when twin engine bombers disrupt supply lines and 136 tanks are destroyed by AT rifles and guns, 75 mm guns, 82 mm mortars, Molotov cocktails, etc,

The 5th day is even worse. A Finnish division is already fighting and Anglo-French forces in the Baltic, Denmark, Baltic Countries, etc, are growing stronger while Hitler's confidence wanes. More twin engine planes arrive in Poland from Denmark and fighters by carrier inthe Baltic Countries.
Given your known enthusiasm for the subject, would these Hurricanes have been fitted with two or three bladed airscrews?
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Old 22 May 15, 16:39
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No nuns. Yugoslavia was quite friendly towards France and Britain in 1939. It's no problem to sail to Yugoslavia when Germany begins to amass troops on the Polish border and thence by train to the Romanian-Polish border, to be in place a day after the German invasion. Even if Yugoslavia refuses transit, the troops need only leave a few days before and sail to the Black Sea.
That was by the way the actual plan. The Poles were to hold the Romanian bridgehead, so Anglo-French troops, materiel and supplies could arrive to assist them. This is only a more aggressive and effective plan to theraten the WM, without actually declaring war.

The few Polish mechanics who escaped did quiet well during the BoB, there were a lot more of them In Poland on 1 Sept, 1939. When one controls the Baltic, transporting spares, ammo, etc, to Poland is a walk in the park. On the other hand, Germany is deprived completely of imports through the Baltic from Finland, the USSR and Sweden and from Norway, etc, along the Danish coast if it attacks Anglo-French forces.

Only nitwits would disembarck in Narvik without winter apparrel, when they can land in Denmark, close the Baltic and the North Sea route to Norway and bomb Germany quite efficiently.
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Old 22 May 15, 16:44
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Perhaps instead of all posing as nuns they could portray themselves as a Catholic finishing school en route to performing a theatrical performance. That way no one would question the quantity of supplies being moved: props and scenery.
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Old 22 May 15, 18:06
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Hitler declares war on Finland on Sept 4, but not yet on France or Britain, which have not attacked German forces yet, but are supplying Poland.

With a massive allied fleet in the Baltic, large Anglo-French forces in the Baltic Countries and Romania, the German navy taking a beating by Polish Swordfish and the Panzer offensive stalling as the Polish air force grows stronger and the LW dive bomber force dwindles, Stalin calls off the invasion of Poland on 5 Sept and informs Hitler.

On the night of 5 Sept all his generals and admirals strongly urge Hitler to withdraw and avoid war with France & Britain. Otherwise to attack immediately the Anglo-French forces before they become too strong. However, this implies fighting a long war on two strong fronts without any imports other than from Switzerland, Hungary, etc,

On 6 Sept Hitler has lost over 100 ships, 424 planes, a similar number of tanks and faces nearly 1,600 A-F planes around his forces and 600 Polish planes (120 Hurricanes) and the offensive is stalling.
At 21:00 he requests a stop to hostilities from Poland & Finland, orders withdrawal from Poland and informs France and Britain.
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Old 22 May 15, 18:21
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Poland and Finland agree to a cease fire with Germany, but Poland refuses a cease fire with Slovakia and concentrates its forces on Slovakian forces in Poland, defeats them rapidly and then invades Slovakia.
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Old 22 May 15, 20:58
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A-F forces remain in place while Germany withdraws. In peace negotiations Poland (backed by France, Romania, Finland, the baltic Countries and Britain) demands E. Prussia, Bohemia & Moravia as reparations. The German population in these areas is to sell its property and will relocate (will be given the choice to migrate to any British or French colony and be granted local nationality or return to Germany).
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Old 22 May 15, 21:11
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The Nazy party is completely discredited and banned, its leaders are tried and sent to prison for crimes against the German Jews, Communists, journalists, etc, and against the Czech and Polish people. Democracy is reestablished in Germany and the ruined German economy stops armament production. Austria secedes from Germany.

Poland becomes a strong nation with Czech industry. Its strategic situation is much safer without German forces in former E. Prussia.

Millions of Germans who migrate to Canada, Australia, Indochina, South Africa, etc, prosper much more than they would have in densely populated Germany.

Stalin decides not to expand into any of his neighboring countries with his inefficient army.

Emboldened by their success, Britain and France convince the US and Poland that it is time to stop Japan from expanding in China, while it is still weak in 1939

A large Anglo-French and American fleet is sent to China to secure the Chinese coast and to Indochina, Borneo, the PI and Burma. China receives 5 old submarines, 5 old DDs and 2 old CLs from these nations, with mercenary crews and begins sinking Japanese ships. Poland sends 4 divisions, India sends 6, France 4, Britain 4 and Australia and NZ a division each to China, without declaring war. They remain close to the front. The US sends trucks, planes, fuel, food, ammo, fieldguns, small arms, helmets, etc, Britain and France send old tanks & planes, fieldguns, ammo, etc, The allies urge the USSR to supply China and to deploy a large force on the Manchurian and Mongolian borders to apply further pressure on Japan and even to invade Manchuria if the USSR so desires.
Facing a very strong, modern force Japan cannot declare war against so many nations and survive, so it has no choice but to abandon China.

Last edited by Draco; 22 May 15 at 21:30..
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Old 22 May 15, 21:14
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Actually,I rather like this scenario. The declaration of war following the German(and Soviet) invasion of Poland was,indeed ,only a gesture . A pity that no practical assistance could be rendered.

However,I'm sure that the whole scheme, produced with the aid of perfect hindsight,of course, is fraught with logistic and diplomatic embuggerances which forum members will quickly indicate.
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Old 22 May 15, 23:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Nazy party is completely discredited and banned, its leaders are tried and sent to prison for crimes against the German Jews, Communists, journalists, etc, and against the Czech and Polish people. Democracy is reestablished in Germany and the ruined German economy stops armament production. Austria secedes from Germany.

Poland becomes a strong nation with Czech industry. Its strategic situation is much safer without German forces in former E. Prussia.

Millions of Germans who migrate to Canada, Australia, Indochina, South Africa, etc, prosper much more than they would have in densely populated Germany.

Stalin decides not to expand into any of his neighboring countries with his inefficient army.

Emboldened by their success, Britain and France convince the US and Poland that it is time to stop Japan from expanding in China, while it is still weak in 1939

A large Anglo-French and American fleet is sent to China to secure the Chinese coast and to Indochina, Borneo, the PI and Burma. China receives 5 old submarines, 5 old DDs and 2 old CLs from these nations, with mercenary crews and begins sinking Japanese ships. Poland sends 4 divisions, India sends 6, France 4, Britain 4 and Australia and NZ a division each to China, without declaring war. They remain close to the front. The US sends trucks, planes, fuel, food, ammo, fieldguns, small arms, helmets, etc, Britain and France send old tanks & planes, fieldguns, ammo, etc, The allies urge the USSR to supply China and to deploy a large force on the Manchurian and Mongolian borders to apply further pressure on Japan and even to invade Manchuria if the USSR so desires.
Facing a very strong, modern force Japan cannot declare war against so many nations and survive, so it has no choice but to abandon China.
Draco, you're a nut, but you're a funny nut. I'm a historical generalist in the terms of this Forum. Even I can punch holes in your concepts, yet, never to the degree of the more specific members.
To use a boxing metaphor, your remind me of a career sparring partner. You will get into the ring to get beat down, but not to become a contender.
Continue with your "what ifs", they seem to be popular.
But the people you argue with have vaults of assets they have shared with the group. Would you be so kind to add to posts, or open threads that would display some of your library?
Just a question.
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Old 23 May 15, 00:53
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I think most of those threads have been closed and locked.
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Old 24 May 15, 01:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The allies had impresive ressources and Germany was quite weak in 1939. However, the allies declared war on Sept 3, did nothing substantial, Poland was ruined, the allies began began losing ships and planes and France lost and had to pay heavy reparations for declaring war. An incredibly incompetent reaction to German invasion of Poland.

In this scenario French, Polish and British generals and admirals use their brains and considerable resources.
and a fair bit of hind sight...
Quote:
Starting in March 1939 the allies prepare this plan in the event of an invasion of Poland.
Nothing to bad so far...

Quote:
1) Polish pilots start training immediately to attack ships day and night with Sworfish and torpedoes. 24 Swordfish and 120 torpedoes will be deployed and hidden in several locations throughout Poland. In the event of an invasion, these planes will attack KM ships attacking Poland and throughout the Baltic (including Kiel) on the first nights of the invasion. Poland also received 24 Hurricanes and an equal number of MS.406s and Blenheims in June 1939. These planes will be camoufflaged along the Polish-Romanian & Polish Latvian borders and first engage on the 3rd dawn of the invasion. 24 crated Hurricanes hidden throughout Poland will begin to be assembled 1 at a time on the day of the invasion.
Is the Royal Navy willing to part with 24 Swordfish? It had less than 150 of them in active service AFAIK on September 3rd 1939. Also if these are British controlled units thats going to tip Germany off really quick...

Also why would Poland think it really needs these torpedo bombers? the main issue for Poland is not Germanys Navy but the Army. I do not really recall much of an invasion from the see, a few naval gun fire operations sure in support of ground troops.

Quote:
2) France and Britain will not declare war on Germany, they will deploy rapidly.
Thats just silly. Why won't they declare war?
Quote:
3) 3 French divisions will deploy by train to the Romanian-Polish border on the day of the invasion. 50 allied fighters and 30 twin engine bombers also deploy to the same area. Romania is France's ally and agrees to allow troop and plane deployment (just like it allowed Polish troops and gold to be evacuated through it).
And Germany wont notice an entire French corps is being transfers to a rather odd spot? And will Romania allow this?
Quote:
4) French and British forces will occupy Denmark and the Dutch coast and airfields on the day of the invasion. 100 each Hurricanes, MS.406 and twin engine bombers will arrive in Holland and the same numbers in Denmark. 24 Swordfish will also arrive in Denmark on the first day. Planes continue arriving the following days.
Question did they actually know when Germany is going to attack? If not thats rather silly of you to think they will be able to move forces into position with short notice...
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4) A large war fleet, including troops transports, tankers, etc, will enter the Baltic on the night of the invasion and occupy Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania on the 2nd day.
Whats Russia going to do about this? Thats going to give them bad vibes...

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5) A deal is closed with Finland, which will supply 3 divisions armed by the French and 24 pilots flying British planes to help Poland fight Germany, in exchange for immediate allied support and materiel in case of a Soviet or German invasion of Finland. The allied and Finnish fleets will transport the 3 divisions to Latvia within 5 days of Germany invading Poland. In addition, Finland will receive 5 Swordfish, 30 torpedoes and 5 Blenheims to attack ships transporting ore, etc, to Germany from Sweden. These bombers will operate from Finnish bases.
Why would Finland do this?
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6) On the 3th day of the invasion Britain and France will begin delivering fighters, twin engine bombers, trucks, fieldguns, tanks, ammo, fuel, etc, to Poland. These fighters will cause heavy losses of German bombers and the bombers will cause considerable chaos in German supply lines.
A some what more sensible thing to do, but one that still has issues? like how are they going to do this? Germany is kinda in the way...
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7) Before the invasion, when German forces concentrate along the Polish borders, the whole Polish fleet will sail at flank speed to Finland and remain there, until the large allied fleet enters the Baltic and controls it. It will then join the large fleet on the 3rd day and start sinking U-boats, etc,
How do they know when Germany is going to attack? I.e. when to set sail?

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On the night of 1 Sept, 1939 Polish pilots torpedo and sink or seriously damage Schleswig-Holstein, 6 large cargo and transport ships, 5 other large warships, and 2 DDs off Poland, at anchor in Kiev and other ports and throughout the Baltic. 2 Swordfish are lost. 4 planes perform 2 missions in the same night.
Rather rosy picture don't ya think? Some how I doubt it's going to go as you think it's going to go...


Keep in mind France could hardly fight it's way out of a paper bag at this time frame, not that it did not have the equipment, but it lacked the training, experience and communications ability's to do much, and it was largely thoughs faults that spelt it's downfall less than a year later.

IIRC I once read a excerpt of France training of the time frame, for a one year conscript (prewar) about half of it was involved in what could effectively be termed as leave (pity I can not find it at the moment), so not much time for actual military training.
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