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  #61  
Old 23 May 15, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It is interesting that while the US (which produced too much of anything) produced 48 cruisers against 102 of the British. In contrast, the US produced 349 DD against 291
Are you serious?

The US built 132 cruisers of the Cleveland class alone.

There were also 287 destroyers built between the Fletcher, Gearing, and Allen M. Sumner classes by themselves.
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  #62  
Old 23 May 15, 20:57
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Are you serious?

The US built 132 cruisers of the Cleveland class alone.

There were also 287 destroyers built between the Fletcher, Gearing, and Allen M. Sumner classes by themselves.
Err we only commissioned 27 Cleavland's and the 9 hulls used for the Independence class CVLs, we did build around 137 Cruisers in total however.
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  #63  
Old 23 May 15, 21:11
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Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
Err we only commissioned 27 Cleavland's and the 9 hulls used for the Independence class CVLs, we did build around 137 Cruisers in total however.
Sorry. I misread a poorly-written sentence about the number of battle stars won by the class (132) and took it to mean the number of ships constructed.

According to "American Cruisers of World War II" by Steve Ewing, 29 Clevelands were built during the war, 8 cancelled, and 9 hulls built as light aircraft carriers. The introduction of this book states that 74 USN cruisers earned battle stars during the war.
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  #64  
Old 24 May 15, 02:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco;3040330[B
]3 gunboats distributed in a huge convoy protect it from surfaced U-boats better than a single, easily sunk, huge ship.[/B]

Again the hundreds of frigates and DDs, etc, are designed for escorting against U-boats and cruisersand were wasted all over the place in supreme commander and admiral pipedreams, costing thousands of lives, hundreds of ships and a huge tonnage of desperately needed, expensive materiel, food, etc,

The British lost the battle of the Atlantic, despite having American, Danish, Norwegian, Dutch, Greek, French, Belgian, etc, merchant ships working for them, which forced Roosevelt to violate neutrality and use his huge navy to escort allied shipping, undertake L-L and use urgently needed industrial capacity to mass produce cargo ships to replenish losses.
All because British misuse of resources before PH and the British and American misuse of resources after PH.

Perhaps even You can picture the difference between

a) saturating the Atlantic route in the direction of Sardinia (to invade France in 1942) the far east through the Med, rapidly moving huge amounts and to Iran, India and China through the secured, short Med & Red Sea and

b) sending part of the ships to Britain (to build up materiel and troops for years) and the other part to South Africa for quite a while (to fight in Egypt and to supply iran, India and China.
3 gunboats distributed in a huge convoy protect it from surfaced U-boats better than a single, easily sunk, huge ship.

Something else Mr. Draco doesn't know much about. U-Boat tactics in WW2.

I appreciate that it doesn't really apply in November 1940, when on average there were only eleven operational boats at sea on any one day (and this includes the Type II 'canoes' which were not capable of Atlantic operations), but boats generally shadowed a convoy during the day, before attacking trimmed down at night. The imaginary gunboats could do nothing about this. In any case, after encountering the first bit of serious Atlantic weather, the gunboats would have been irrelevant anyway, although hopefully their former crews would have been drying out aboard one or more of the merchantmen.

Again the hundreds of frigates and DDs, etc, are designed for escorting against U-boats and cruisers and were wasted all over the place in supreme commander and admiral pipedreams,

Nonsense. Frigates and sloops were designed for convoy escort duties, and that is where virtually all of them operated. Destroyers were intended for fleet operations, and that is where they went.

The British lost the battle of the Atlantic

Oh, really?
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  #65  
Old 24 May 15, 02:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It is interesting that while the US (which produced too much of wverything) produced 48 cruisers against 102 of the British. In contrast, the US produced 349 DD against 291.

The surreal campaign to capture neutral Syria and Lebanon lasted over a month in 1941 and involved 34,000 troops (Free French, Indian, Australian, Arab, etc,) and RAF used few Hurricanes, P-40s and old Blenheims. It costs thousands of casualties on both sides, but killed no axis troops. Fortunately, many of the good De.520s were destroyed or damaged on the ground by the few RAF planes (the French had no Radar and little AAA), otherwise the recurring mistake of attacking without adequate air support would have caused another fiasco.

This strategy conceived by brilliant allied leaders does appear like massive waste of resources and neglect of priority and lack of common sense and makes to me a lot less sense than capturing invaluable Pantelleria, Tunisia and Sardinia (P-T-S) in 1940. 41 or even early 1942. P with a thousand men in a day. This battle was fought with fighters ferried to Ghana by carriers and flown across Africa to Egypt and with equipment transported around South Africa. All this for not taking P-T-S.
It is interesting that while the US (which produced too much of wverything) produced 48 cruisers against 102 of the British. In contrast, the US produced 349 DD against 291.


I am not sure why this is interesting, still less relevant to anything at all, but in point of fact the British actually produced 40 cruisers during WW2.

They also produced 130 fleet destroyers, requisitioned 7 Brazilian and 2 Turkish destroyers building to a British design in British yards, and built a further 86 'Hunt' class escort destroyers.

I found the site from which you acquired your ludicrously incorrect information in your files (Wikipedia, of course.)

It is headed 'Military Production during World War 2' and it is so wrong as to be almost comical.

Come to think of it, like your posts. I now know where you get it from!!
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  #66  
Old 24 May 15, 14:23
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Do You find them as commical as I find Norway, France, Dakar, Kastelorizo, NA, Greece, Crete, Syria-Lebanon, Malaya, DEI, Ceylon, Madagascar, Dieppe, the Americans attacking little remore and useless islands while they lose ships gallore along the priority coast, Dieppe, Morocco, Algeria, wasting half the British resources (most of which come from the US) bombing houses at night with 5% of the bombs falling within 5 miles of the intended target, Sicily, Anzio, landing first on the heavily defended coast of France, wasting a month to take Caen, MArket-Garden, etc,

All that costly, shameful blundering around the world for years, instead of simply taking Pantelleria in a day in Oct 1940 (stopping the fighting in Egypt and opening the Med), reinforcing Crete and deploying a decent air force in Dec 1940, attacking Taranto with 3 CVs & twin engine bombers from Malta (instead of a ridiculous number of planes), landing in Denmark (to open the Baltic and stop ship transit from Norway, instead of landing in Narvik), invading Sardinia in May 1941, sinking all German capital ships and most of the U-boats with all the allied CVs and most of the surface fleet in early 1942, sinking a large number of Japanese merchant and war ships with all the old BBs and subs in the SW Pacific and holding Java, Sumatra and Singapore, landing in the French Riviera and Dieppe in May 1942 and then sending the fleet to the Atlantic to sink the IJN within 2 months.
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  #67  
Old 24 May 15, 14:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
3 gunboats distributed in a huge convoy protect it from surfaced U-boats better than a single, easily sunk, huge ship.
Something else Mr. Draco doesn't know much about. U-Boat tactics in WW2.
No kidding, so it would seem, though Im at a loss how 3 Coastal gunboats are superior to a single much larger ocean going ship when operating in the open ocean (even with a tacked on keel their not suited for open ocean, looking them up I ran across one remark that they removed the guns to improve sea board when making a long distance trip). vs subs their almost useless I would not count on them winning a gunnery duel not that a U-boat would readily chose to do so
and if it dives I doubt their carrying any depth charges nor sonar...

When compared to Jarvis bay I would think that the gunboats would be worse gunnery platforms, to say little about being able to soak up hits, and their sea keeping ability's.

Quote:
The British lost the battle of the Atlantic

Oh, really?
I suppose they lost it because they did not finish off the German navy in the first 6 months due to their numerical advantages, you know how incompetent they where not to do so...
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  #68  
Old 24 May 15, 14:44
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"Common sense" :coming from Morelia
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  #69  
Old 24 May 15, 14:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
"hundreds of millions of tons..."

He meant :billions of tons
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  #70  
Old 24 May 15, 14:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Do You find them as commical as I find Norway, France, Dakar, Kastelorizo, NA, Greece, Crete, Syria-Lebanon, Malaya, DEI, Ceylon, Madagascar, Dieppe, the Americans attacking little remore and useless islands while they lose ships gallore along the priority coast, Dieppe, Morocco, Algeria, wasting half the British resources (most of which come from the US) bombing houses at night with 5% of the bombs falling within 5 miles of the intended target, Sicily, Anzio, landing first on the heavily defended coast of France, wasting a month to take Caen, MArket-Garden, etc,

All that costly, shameful blundering around the world for years, instead of simply taking Pantelleria in a day in Oct 1940 (stopping the fighting in Egypt and opening the Med), reinforcing Crete and deploying a decent air force in Dec 1940, attacking Taranto with 3 CVs & twin engine bombers from Malta (instead of a ridiculous number of planes), landing in Denmark (to open the Baltic and stop ship transit from Norway, instead of landing in Narvik), invading Sardinia in May 1941, sinking all German capital ships and most of the U-boats with all the allied CVs and most of the surface fleet in early 1942, sinking a large number of Japanese merchant and war ships with all the old BBs and subs in the SW Pacific and holding Java, Sumatra and Singapore, landing in the French Riviera and Dieppe in May 1942 and then sending the fleet to the Atlantic to sink the IJN within 2 months.
Well, they do say that laughter is good for your health...
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  #71  
Old 24 May 15, 15:07
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Sending the CVs and most of the modern surface ships to the Atlantic and stopping the Japanese in Singapore, Sumatra and Java leaves the Japanese free to expand only into New Guinea, New Caledonia, Fiji, the Solomons, Midway, etc,
However, supplying these remote locations from Japan becomes a nightmare with all the subs concentrated in the Pacific and the remote outposts absorb a large number of men, planes, AAA, etc,

When the massive allied fleet finally enters the SW Pacific in July 1940(through Singapore and between Java and Sumatra), the allies immediately invade Palawan, prepare large airfields and transport 400 P-38s and 400 twin engine and 400 4 engine planes. The IJN suffered heavy losses trying to stop the invasion and it has to counter attack in a desperate decisive battle. The Japanese split their fleet in a typical multipronged attack and the battle takes place in a huge area between the PI, N Malaya and Borneo. Allied carriers have received considerable AAA and have nearly 1,000 planes, the Japanese fleet has much inferior AAA and 600 carrier planes, 600 G3M and G4M and 600 land based, single engine planes. The allies are perfectly familiar with the long lance torpedo (which damaged some old BBs) and are using good areal, DD and sub torpedoes.
Japanese planes encounter for the first time Wildcats, TBF, P-38, B-17, 24, 25 and 26 (they had all been sent to the priority area) and experience tremendous losses within hours.
During the battle allied subs sink or damage 22 warships, allied CVs damage all their Japanese counterparts and several BBs, cruisers and DDs within hours.
The huge surface fleet dispatches Yamato and Musashi surprisingly fast, before they cause much damage. The large number of allied cruisers and DDs rapidly wipes out their Japanese counterparts.
8 hours into the battle the IJN is reduced to a few ships deployed throughout the Pacific.
Ships entering service are all deplyed in the Pacific and as they enter from Panama they sail to Hawaii, Australia, etc, and rapidly sink the remainder of the IJN.

After Palawan, the allies invade Formosa and the Chinese coast and begin bombing Japan and mining its waters from these areas. In late 1942 there are practically no Japanese merchant, fishing or warships and Japan has been expelled from the continent and is bombed intensely every day.
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  #72  
Old 24 May 15, 15:09
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Well, they do say that laughter is good for your health...
Draco's threads are wonderful.Just like what the Eurovision song contest is for the music.

Last edited by sebfrench76; 24 May 15 at 15:20..
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  #73  
Old 24 May 15, 15:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The moment you weld a keel on Aphis, she stops being a river boat.
Of course, I said insect boats would have been better used taking invaluable Pantelleria early in the war than anywhere else at any time (especially Kasterolizo and Tobruk).
But if I had to provide an escort for an invaluable convoy and had no DD, CK, CVE, etc, ,I would much rather risk 3 small targets and 165 men and long range guns, than put all the eggs on a huge basket with 250 men & short range guns, which renders the convoy more visible and does not protect it from U-boats, cruisers, etc,

Its funny that everybody accepts attacking tiny, useless, remote Pealy Island, Wake, Eniwetok, Marcus, etc, at great risk and the Doolittle raid with large fleets for no territorial gains while the Germans sink ships gallore. Yet, everybody regards capturing weak Pantelleria rapidly for myriad benefits for years a pipedream.
Maybe he wants to do big bulges like the Monitors got...



That way they could bob around like a cork in a bathtub with a four-year-old. Just think, we could rename them the "Vomit comet" class!

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  #74  
Old 25 May 15, 17:09
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Among the commical events, I neglected PH, Wake, Guam, HK, Burma, the PI, Rabaul, Milne Bay, Coral Sea, Kokoda trail, Alaska, building hundreds of expensive airfields, ports and bases in useless places, Guadalcanal, Makin-Tarawa, Rhodes, several raids on Wake and a second raid on Marcus, keeping strong forces throughout the war in New Caledonia, Port Moresby, Australia, Auckland, etc, the liberation of New Guinea and adjacent areas, Truk, Kwajalein, Pelelieu, the belated liberation of Burma, the waste of billions of dollars for the Alaska and Burma roads and USAAF bases in China (wiped out by a single Japanese offensive against completely incompetently led forces), the battle of Leyte, etc,

All of which could have been prevented or been successful and less costly by sticking to priority and common sense.

Last edited by Draco; 25 May 15 at 17:23..
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  #75  
Old 25 May 15, 17:14
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Among the commical events, I neglected PH, Wake, Guam, HK, Burma, the PI, Rabaul, Milne Bay, Kokoda trail, building hundreds of expensive airfields, ports and bases in useless places, Guadalcanal, Makin-Tarawa, several raids on Wake and a second raid on Marcus, Truk, Kwajalein, Pelelieu, the belated liberation of Burma, the waste of billions of dollars for USAAF bases in China (wiped out by a single Japanese offensive against completely incompetently led forces)the battle od Leyte, etc,

All of which could have been prevented or been successful and less costly by sticking to priority and common sense.
Even coming from you, that was one of the most ignorant statements about WWII history I have ever read. Read a book or ten on the Pacific Campaign, then come back and post. The above nonsense is the only thing that's "commical," to the point where it isn't even worth ripping it apart.

Last edited by BobTheBarbarian; 25 May 15 at 17:28..
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