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  #46  
Old 23 May 15, 13:42
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You mean the experienced RN could not refuel at sea, like the inexperienced USN did its destroyers in WW I thanks to Nimitz? Or the IJN did for the PH attack?

How long do You thnk it would take to refuel 650 t boats at sea?

3 insect boats would use a tiny fraction of the fuel of JB and produce much less smoke and be much less visible. I cannot think of a more absurd and dangerous use for a slow, highly visible and expensive 14,000 ship and a large crew.

It makes more sense to send the 38 ships independently at different times, than to make them waste time and sail to a meeting point, so the huge, juicy target is escorted only by a single, larger, more visible target, equally vulnerable to U-boats and cruisers. A huge, poorly escorted convoy is worse than no convoy.

While the US could not provide decent escorts in early 1942 (because the warships were being used for absurd missions, like the Doolittle raid, raiding the Marshalls, New Guinea, Marcus Island, etc,), the USN determined that it was safer to keep the ships apart. Unfortunately, they didn't black out the cities.

Last edited by Draco; 23 May 15 at 14:08..
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  #47  
Old 23 May 15, 14:30
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Convoy OB-288 in Feb 1941 is even more interesting than HX-84

It involved 48 ships again with a ridiculous escort.
Although Doveton considered U-boats a minor threat at the time of HX-84 a few months before, the slow armed ship Manistee was sunk by an Italian and a German Torpedo and 9 other ships were lost to U-boats.

Brilliant tactics after the lessons from HX-84:

Gather an even larger convoy and escort it equally poorly and have it scatter in an area teeming with subs.
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  #48  
Old 23 May 15, 15:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Convoy OB-288 in Feb 1941 is even more interesting than HX-84

It involved 48 ships again with a ridiculous escort.
Although Doveton considered U-boats a minor threat at the time of HX-84 a few months before, the slow armed ship Manistee was sunk by an Italian and a German Torpedo and 9 other ships were lost to U-boats.

Brilliant tactics after the lessons from HX-84:

Gather an even larger convoy and escort it equally poorly and have it scatter in an area teeming with subs.
It really does become tedious to observe the number of times you insist upon attributing to me statements which I did not make. My original comment was in response to your reference in post 32 to after losing hundreds of ships in U-boat infested waters. when the facts show something rather different.

Again, whilst the situation which existed in November 1940 has no relevance to the situation of February 1941, even in February 1941 the average number of frontboote at sea per day was still only 12, and only 14 merchantmen were sunk in convoy by U-boats during the whole of the month. Whilst you may well pick out one convoy which suffered, I can refer you to numerous others which crossed unscathed.

I appreciate that you have a perverse aversion to facts, but they really are rather important, as you would perhaps begin to understand if you looked at anything other than wikipedia.
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  #49  
Old 23 May 15, 15:18
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Destroyers were shelling insignificant, tiny Peale Island next to Wake against shore batteries (risking destruction for no gain) and cruisers and DDs were shelling useless Wake (which housed some American prisoners), while bombers also attacked Wake. A similar force attacked useless Eniwetok simultaneously. All this occurred at the time U-boats enjoyed the 2nd happy time, sinking ships in view of civilians all along the eastern seabord (supplying the high priority area) for lack of escorts. Insignificant Marcus Island (dangerously close to Japan) was also attacked by a strong force a little later.

That is definitely against common sense and priority.

Last edited by Draco; 23 May 15 at 15:24..
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  #50  
Old 23 May 15, 15:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You mean the experienced RN could not refuel at sea, like the inexperienced USN did its destroyers in WW I thanks to Nimitz? Or the IJN did for the PH attack?

How long do You thnk it would take to refuel 650 t boats at sea?

3 insect boats would use a tiny fraction of the fuel of JB and produce much less smoke and be much less visible. I cannot think of a more absurd and dangerous use for a slow, highly visible and expensive 14,000 ship and a large crew.

It makes more sense to send the 38 ships independently at different times, than to make them waste time and sail to a meeting point, so the huge, juicy target is escorted only by a single, larger, more visible target, equally vulnerable to U-boats and cruisers. A huge, poorly escorted convoy is worse than no convoy.

While the US could not provide decent escorts in early 1942 (because the warships were being used for absurd missions, like the Doolittle raid, raiding the Marshalls, New Guinea, Marcus Island, etc,), the USN determined that it was safer to keep the ships apart. Unfortunately, they didn't black out the cities.
You mean the experienced RN could not refuel at sea, like the inexperienced USN did its destroyers in WW I thanks to Nimitz? Or the IJN did for the PH attack?

I didn't realize that the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor with river gunboats.

Yes, of course the USN was able to refuel destroyers at sea in WW1. In fact, the USN was far more proficient at RAS than the RN. You will doubtless attribute this to typical British incompetence, but in fact it was because, unlike the USN, the RN had access to a world-wide chain of naval bases, and did not need to develop the necessary skills to anything like the same degree.

However, I don't recall reading of any occasions when the USN attempted to refuel river gunboats in mid-Atlantic, presumably before the first minor bit of rough sea caused them to founder.

I will let others judge for themselves the credibility or otherwise of your gunboat obsession.

As far as I am concerned, you continue to demonstrate that you are a complete idiot. Does anyone else have a view?
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Old 23 May 15, 16:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You mean the experienced RN could not refuel at sea, like the inexperienced USN did its destroyers in WW I thanks to Nimitz? Or the IJN did for the PH attack?


Nimitz had nothing to do with the US Navy doing underway replenishment. That started in 1905 with primarily the Pacific Fleet in planning for a war in Asia.

And, while both the RN and USN could refuel at sea in WW 2, neither did it as part of convoy operations as that creates both an unnecessary target and a huge operational headache.

In fact, the 4 piper DD's Britain were given were modified by them (and the US carried out a similar mod on some of theirs) removing one stack and boiler and replacing that space with fuel oil so they could make an Atlantic crossing as a convoy escort (that takes more fuel than a straight transit would) without refueling.
Endurance was more important than speed.

And, if you think a low freeboard gunboat is suitable as a warship of any kind in the Atlantic you are delusional.
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  #52  
Old 23 May 15, 16:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Convoy OB-288 in Feb 1941 is even more interesting than HX-84

It involved 48 ships again with a ridiculous escort.
Although Doveton considered U-boats a minor threat at the time of HX-84 a few months before, the slow armed ship Manistee was sunk by an Italian and a German Torpedo and 9 other ships were lost to U-boats.

Brilliant tactics after the lessons from HX-84:

Gather an even larger convoy and escort it equally poorly and have it scatter in an area teeming with subs.
There were numerous convoys sent across the Atlantic and elsewhere with a 'ridiculous escort' and a very high % survived intact. So whilst the horrible Allies were being ridiculous, the Germans, the KM and the other Axis nations were being even more ridiculous by starting a war they hadn't logistically or economically prepared for.
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  #53  
Old 23 May 15, 16:15
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The moment you weld a keel on Aphis, she stops being a river boat.
Of course, I said insect boats would have been better used taking invaluable Pantelleria early in the war than anywhere else at any time (especially Kasterolizo and Tobruk).
But if I had to provide an escort for an invaluable convoy and had no DD, CK, CVE, etc, ,I would much rather risk 3 small targets and 165 men and long range guns, than put all the eggs on a huge basket with 250 men & short range guns, which renders the convoy more visible and does not protect it from U-boats, cruisers, etc,

Its funny that everybody accepts attacking tiny, useless, remote Pealy Island, Wake, Eniwetok, Marcus, etc, at great risk and the Doolittle raid with large fleets for no territorial gains while the Germans sink ships gallore. Yet, everybody regards capturing weak Pantelleria rapidly for myriad benefits for years a pipedream.
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  #54  
Old 23 May 15, 16:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The moment you weld a keel on Aphis, she stops being a river boat.
Of course, I said insect boats would have been better used taking invaluable Pantelleria early in the war than anywhere else at any time (especially Kasterolizo and Tobruk).
But if I had to provide an escort for an invaluable convoy and had no DD, CK, CVE, etc, ,I would much rather risk 3 small targets and 165 men and long range guns, than put all the eggs on a huge basket with 250 men & short range guns, which renders the convoy more visible and does not protect it from U-boats, cruisers, etc,

Its funny that everybody accepts attacking tiny, useless, remote Pealy Island, Wake, Eniwetok, Marcus, etc, at great risk and the Doolittle raid with large fleets for no territorial gains while the Germans sink ships gallore. Yet, everybody regards capturing weak Pantelleria rapidly for myriad benefits for years a pipedream.
The moment you weld a keel on Aphis, she stops being a river boat.

And the added weight reduces her freeboard still further, you barmpot!

which renders the convoy more visible and does not protect it from U-boats, cruisers, etc,

How does it make the convoy more visible?

How exactly does the gunboat (which by mid-Atlantic would have foundered long ago anyway) protect the convoy from U-boats?

An AMC was capable of protecting a convoy from any German warship except a cruiser, pocket battleship or battleship. If, for example, Pinguin or Kormoran had chanced upon an AMC escorted convoy, the AMC had the necessary weapons to put up a credible defence, assuming that the raider didn't break off at first contact rather than risk receiving damage without any hope of support or rescue.

How much longer do you intend going on with this lunacy?
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  #55  
Old 23 May 15, 17:18
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NO, the keel displaces more mass of water than its mass
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  #56  
Old 23 May 15, 17:40
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3 gunboats distributed in a huge convoy protect it from surfaced U-boats better than a single, easily sunk, huge ship.

Again the hundreds of frigates and DDs, etc, are designed for escorting against U-boats and cruisers and were wasted all over the place in supreme commander and admiral pipedreams, costing thousands of lives, hundreds of ships and a huge tonnage of desperately needed, expensive materiel, food, etc,

The British lost the battle of the Atlantic, despite having American, Danish, Norwegian, Dutch, Greek, French, Belgian, etc, merchant ships working for them, which forced Roosevelt to violate neutrality and use his huge navy to escort allied shipping, undertake L-L and use urgently needed industrial capacity to mass produce cargo ships to replenish losses.
All because British misuse of resources before PH and the British and American misuse of resources after PH.

Perhaps even You can picture the difference between

a) saturating the Atlantic route in the direction of Sardinia (to invade France in 1942) the far east through the Med, rapidly moving huge amounts and to Iran, India and China through the secured, short Med & Red Sea and

b) sending part of the ships to Britain (to build up materiel and troops for years) and the other part to South Africa for quite a while (to fight in Egypt and to supply iran, India and China.

Last edited by Draco; 23 May 15 at 17:56..
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  #57  
Old 23 May 15, 18:07
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Invading France in 1942 not only increases considerably the already high German rate of loss of men and equipment, it also deprived Germany of French iron ore and steel, which precludes production of hundreds of millions of tons of U-boats, Panzers, STUGs, trucks, 88 mm guns, shells, small arms, bombs, fortifications, etc, in 1942-43, making fighting even more difficult for Germany.
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  #58  
Old 23 May 15, 18:18
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Invading France in 1942 not only increases considerably the already high German rate of loss of men and equipment, it also deprived Germany of French iron ore and steel, which precludes production of hundreds of millions of tons of U-boats, Panzers, STUGs, trucks, 88 mm guns, shells, small arms, bombs, fortifications, etc, in 1942-43, making fighting even more difficult for Germany.
"hundreds of millions of tons..."
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  #59  
Old 23 May 15, 19:27
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It is interesting that while the US (which produced too much of wverything) produced 48 cruisers against 102 of the British. In contrast, the US produced 349 DD against 291.

The surreal campaign to capture neutral Syria and Lebanon lasted over a month in 1941 and involved 34,000 troops (Free French, Indian, Australian, Arab, etc,) and RAF used few Hurricanes, P-40s and old Blenheims. It costs thousands of casualties on both sides, but killed no axis troops. Fortunately, many of the good De.520s were destroyed or damaged on the ground by the few RAF planes (the French had no Radar and little AAA), otherwise the recurring mistake of attacking without adequate air support would have caused another fiasco.

This strategy conceived by brilliant allied leaders does appear like massive waste of resources and neglect of priority and lack of common sense and makes to me a lot less sense than capturing invaluable Pantelleria, Tunisia and Sardinia (P-T-S) in 1940. 41 or even early 1942. P with a thousand men in a day. This battle was fought with fighters ferried to Ghana by carriers and flown across Africa to Egypt and with equipment transported around South Africa. All this for not taking P-T-S.

Last edited by Draco; 23 May 15 at 19:50..
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Old 23 May 15, 19:44
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It is interesting that while the US (which produced too much of anything) produced 48 cruisers against 102 of the British. In contrast, the US produced 349 DD against 291
Did you mean to type "to much of everything?" If not, could you develop your thoughts?
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