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  #31  
Old 21 May 15, 19:35
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
I would also place a solid bet that Mr. Draco does not realize the strategies and campaigns of all the historical figures he references above (save Demosthenes, who was an orator, not a general, another basic error) are all extensively studied at West Point and similar institutions he so ignorantly derides.

This is, after all, the guy who argued for a twin-engined carrier fighter a few threads ago based on something he saw in a comic book...
I agree with you taking Draco down a peg on all the rest, but it's time to pop your own bubble. Demosthenes was also the name of a very important Athenian general in the Peloponnesian War.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demos..._%28general%29
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  #32  
Old 21 May 15, 20:34
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
Interesting. Mr. Draco, in paragraph 2 above, suggests that most Generals and Admirals are, in effect idiots, yet in paragraph 3 he criticizes Churchill and Roosevelt, who are also apparently idiots, for going against the advice of these same idiots.

Presumably, the only conclusion to be drawn is that everyone is an idiot, except Mr. Draco.

However, I doubt that even the dullest Admiral would have claimed HMAS Sydney was a merchant ship, would have sent a river gunboat to escort an Atlantic convoy, or would have claimed that HMS Jervis Bay was a Merchant Raider, all of which charges can be directed at our new Alexander!
You are right, only brilliant admirals, generals from the best academies and the best supreme commanders in their finest hour would have:

1) Used a single 14,000 ton, 15 knot ship to escort a 38 ship convoy, after losing hundreds of ships in U-boat infested waters.
2) Used submarines to escort other valuable convoys
3) Left an armed trawler escorting PQ-17

4) Used a 625 ton boat to shell Tobruk (supporting a Churchillian raid against a fortress) and when she's sunk having accomplished nothing, used her sister.

5) Attacked neutral Algeria and Dakar, raided strong Dieppe (with 4" guns from DDs) and Tobruk, fought for neutral Madagascar with a large fleet for months, lost a lot of men in Syria and attempted to invade Kastelorizo and years later Rhodes, etc, wasted thousands of lives defending the useless, untenable PI, Wake, Guam, etc, or invading the useless Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Kwajalein, Pelelieu, etc, but yielded the invaluable, most defensible Sumatra and Java in weeks and stayed clear of weak Pantelleria in the most valuable location in 1940, 41 and 42. So they would have to waste hundreds of lives and planes and dozens of ships supplying Malta to blockade Rommel (who would have never arrived in Libya if Keyes had been headed in 1940).

6) Used a BB, a CV, a CVE, 2 cruisers and 7 DD to ferry 12 inferior Hurricanes and skuas to Malta against Italian forces (no LW there yet) and then launched them beyond range and turned tail.

7) Used a huge fleet with the latest CVs in the Pacific and wasted 16 expensive and urgently needed B-25s and several men to drop 16 tons of bombs all over Japan (specifying not to bomb the imperial palace), while they are losing hundreds of ships in the Atlantic and leaving the 2 oldest CVs in the Pacific to fight the 2 newest IJN CVs and a CVL in the Coral Sea.

8) Sent expeditionary forces with inadequate air support to Norway, France and Greece and after losing shamefully, send a large infantry force to Malaya with even worse and fewer planes, few guns, no tanks and call it impregnable and expect it to hold for at least 6 months. And whine after it falls in weeks.

9) Kept a huge fleet in Hawaii and a tiny one in the PI where they knew they were to be attacked.

I could exceed 100 items, but being British they make a lot of sense to You.
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  #33  
Old 21 May 15, 21:57
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The difference in cost between a 45, 50 or 53 caliber gun in 1940 is ridiculous, compared to the cost of losing human lives or a ship. Marblehead had twelve 53 caliber, 6" guns guns in the 1920s. That is a well conceived naval gun with reasonable range at nearly the same cost. But again, common sense is not common at all and cannot be acquired in academies.

I can see the advantages of using a short barrel for a gun fighting in the jungle but not in a ship. Ironically they used a very long barreled M1 garand in the jungle
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  #34  
Old 21 May 15, 22:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You are right, only brilliant admirals, generals from the best academies and the best supreme commanders in their finest hour would have:


4) Used a 625 ton boat to shell Tobruk (supporting a Churchillian raid against a fortress) and when she's sunk having accomplished nothing, used her sister.
I'll just address item number 4's gross stupidity in lack of research.

The Ladybird was accompanied as part of a bombardment fleet by Terror, Gant, Aphis, Stuart, Vampire, and Voyager. In support, the RN sent Warspite, Valiant, Barham, and the carrier Illustrious.

The operation is recounted in more detail in Ian Buxton's Big Gun Monitors (USNI Press, 1978).

The rather large fleet of battleships, monitors, and gunboats shelled Bardia then Tobruk. The Terror fired so many 15" rounds that her guns wore out entirely to the point the shells weren't gripping the rifling.

So, the comment that the British sent a single small gunboat to bombard Tobruk is so wrong it hurts. Stop relying on Wiki (aka "Your files") as a sole source for spouting off. It only makes you look foolish.
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  #35  
Old 21 May 15, 22:13
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The fact is that they used 650 t ships with two 6" guns to shell a well defended fortress, attacked by a ridiculous landing force and lost several ships and gained nothing at all. Absurd goals, strategy and tactics. A grandiose waste of force. Much like Dakar, Dieppe, Madagascar, Rhodes, Syria, Anzio, etc,

All those shallow draft boats and the monitor could have transported troops to Pantelleria, along with the landing ships and boats and the same fleet which shelled Tobrulk or was used for White or Pedestal and 1,000 men would probably have taken the island in days, if not hours in 1940 (before there were German planes in the area). Or after the Germans were there, using the 5 BB, 5 CV etc, specified.
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  #36  
Old 22 May 15, 01:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You are right, only brilliant admirals, generals from the best academies and the best supreme commanders in their finest hour would have:

1) Used a single 14,000 ton, 15 knot ship to escort a 38 ship convoy, after losing hundreds of ships in U-boat infested waters.
2) Used submarines to escort other valuable convoys
3) Left an armed trawler escorting PQ-17

4) Used a 625 ton boat to shell Tobruk (supporting a Churchillian raid against a fortress) and when she's sunk having accomplished nothing, used her sister.

5) Attacked neutral Algeria and Dakar, raided strong Dieppe (with 4" guns from DDs) and Tobruk, fought for neutral Madagascar with a large fleet for months, lost a lot of men in Syria and attempted to invade Kastelorizo and years later Rhodes, etc, wasted thousands of lives defending the useless, untenable PI, Wake, Guam, etc, or invading the useless Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Kwajalein, Pelelieu, etc, but yielded the invaluable, most defensible Sumatra and Java in weeks and stayed clear of weak Pantelleria in the most valuable location in 1940, 41 and 42. So they would have to waste hundreds of lives and planes and dozens of ships supplying Malta to blockade Rommel (who would have never arrived in Libya if Keyes had been headed in 1940).

6) Used a BB, a CV, a CVE, 2 cruisers and 7 DD to ferry 12 inferior Hurricanes and skuas to Malta against Italian forces (no LW there yet) and then launched them beyond range and turned tail.

7) Used a huge fleet with the latest CVs in the Pacific and wasted 16 expensive and urgently needed B-25s and several men to drop 16 tons of bombs all over Japan (specifying not to bomb the imperial palace), while they are losing hundreds of ships in the Atlantic and leaving the 2 oldest CVs in the Pacific to fight the 2 newest IJN CVs and a CVL in the Coral Sea.

8) Sent expeditionary forces with inadequate air support to Norway, France and Greece and after losing shamefully, send a large infantry force to Malaya with even worse and fewer planes, few guns, no tanks and call it impregnable and expect it to hold for at least 6 months. And whine after it falls in weeks.

9) Kept a huge fleet in Hawaii and a tiny one in the PI where they knew they were to be attacked.

I could exceed 100 items, but being British they make a lot of sense to You.
1) Used a single 14,000 ton, 15 knot ship to escort a 38 ship convoy, after losing hundreds of ships in U-boat infested waters.
2) Used submarines to escort other valuable convoys
3) Left an armed trawler escorting PQ-17

4) Used a 625 ton boat to shell Tobruk (supporting a Churchillian raid against a fortress) and when she's sunk having accomplished nothing, used her sister.

1). In November 1940 the average number of Frontboote at sea was eleven. 'U-boat infested waters?' In the whole of November, 1940, only 19 merchantmen were sunk in cinvoy. HX 84 was not attacked by U-boats.

2). Submarines accompanied some Arctic convoys as part of a larger escort, in the hope that they could act against attack by surface vessels. I have explained this once, and am surprised that you cannot grasp it.

3). PQ 17 had a large escort, of 6 destroyers, 11 corvettes, minesweepers and trawlers, and two anti-aircraft ships. What are you talking about?

4). She was part of a much larger force.



attempted to invade Kastelorizo

What is this sudden fascination about Kastelorizo? It was a minor operation, invloving a landing force of 200 men, and total casualities on both sides were 26 killed and ten wounded. Yes, the British were surprised by the effectiveness of the Italian response, but even you can hardly make it into a defeat on the scale of Stalingrad.

It really isn't worth discussing the rest. They have all been covered time after time in the interminable & idiotic threads that you produce at regular intervals, during the courses of which you have been unable to defend your claims, unable to rebut counter arguments presented by others, and unwilling to acknowledge your copious factual errors.

In short, you have learned nothing, and simply continue repeating the same ill informed bile like a demented parrot.
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  #37  
Old 22 May 15, 10:46
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Isn't it funny that having a huge, fast BB, CV and CA fleet (including American ships) just for that purpose, the allies would waste slow subs escorting convoys, hoping that they would destroy Tirpitz, etc,?

The convoy escorted by mighty Surcouf was not in the Arctic.

Yes, Norway, France, Dakar, Kasperizo, the raids on Tobruk and Dieppe, Greece, North Africa, Syria, Madagascar, IEA, Malaya and just about everything the British did in WW II were all trifles compared to Stalingrad, they only managed to match the incompetent leadership and unnessary losses throughout.

The point is that Pantelleria in 1940 is a trivial operation with major consequences. While it took a long time and large forces just to invade Syria or Madagascar, Pantelleria is easy and fast and releases a huge war and merchant fleet and army (North Africa) for years.

Last edited by Draco; 22 May 15 at 11:07..
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  #38  
Old 22 May 15, 11:04
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Judging by Italian performance before the Germans arrived, an attack in 1940 by 1,000 well trained men, involving Terror, Aphis, Gnat, Ladybird, landing ships and boats, 2 BBs and CVs, 4 CA and CL and 24 DDs, smoke shells and bombs to blind the costal guns during the initial landing would have caused the garrison to surrender within hours. British losses would be comparable to Kastelorizo.
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  #39  
Old 22 May 15, 11:13
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I am surprised that the French did not invade Pantelleria and Sardinia when Mussolini attacked their border, at least to put their expensive and otherwise inactive navy to use.
It would have ruined the Italian army in Libya with minimum cost.
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  #40  
Old 22 May 15, 12:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I am surprised that the French did not invade Pantelleria and Sardinia when Mussolini attacked their border, at least to put their expensive and otherwise inactive navy to use.
It would have ruined the Italian army in Libya with minimum cost.
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  #41  
Old 22 May 15, 15:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Isn't it funny that having a huge, fast BB, CV and CA fleet (including American ships) just for that purpose, the allies would waste slow subs escorting convoys, hoping that they would destroy Tirpitz, etc,?

The convoy escorted by mighty Surcouf was not in the Arctic.

Yes, Norway, France, Dakar, Kasperizo, the raids on Tobruk and Dieppe, Greece, North Africa, Syria, Madagascar, IEA, Malaya and just about everything the British did in WW II were all trifles compared to Stalingrad, they only managed to match the incompetent leadership and unnessary losses throughout.

The point is that Pantelleria in 1940 is a trivial operation with major consequences. While it took a long time and large forces just to invade Syria or Madagascar, Pantelleria is easy and fast and releases a huge war and merchant fleet and army (North Africa) for years.
Isn't it funny that having a huge, fast BB, CV and CA fleet (including American ships) just for that purpose, the allies would waste slow subs escorting convoys, hoping that they would destroy Tirpitz, etc,?

Why exactly are they wasted? Given that German merchant shipping had been swept clear of the Atlantic and Arctic, the principal role of Allied boats in these areas was to seek out and destroy German warships on the rare occasions that they poked their noses out of port. The boats with the Arctic convoys were simply part of a greater whole. What else would you suggest they do?

The convoy escorted by mighty Surcouf was not in the Arctic.

I don't recall anyone saying that she was. However, as the Free French were using her as a surface ship, because of her doubtful material condition, and because, after most of her original crew had refused to join the Free French, she was carrying a crew consisting largely of non-submariners, I really don't see the relevance.

Incidentally, this information is widely available in a variety of published sources. You should not simply rely upon 'your files' (wikipedia) to the exclusion of everything else.

The point is that Pantelleria in 1940 is a trivial operation with major consequences.

So you say. Unfortunately, no-one, either at the time or since, seems to agree with you. You appear completely unable to grasp the fact that the supposed Pantelleria operation was in reality nothing more than Roger Keyes indulging in a bit of empire-building.

Still, I hope you will continue to promote your Pantelleria fixation. It not only gives us all considerable amusement, but as long as you are doing that you are not advocating your other brainwave, of escorting Atlantic convoys with river gunboats, which was of course the highlight of your ramblings yesterday.

Incidentally, do you still believe that HMAS Sydney was a merchantman?

By the way, where is Kasperizo?
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  #42  
Old 22 May 15, 16:26
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I suggested already that the subs be sent to the Pacific before the IJN strikes, in order to wreak havoc with minimum expense among the huge merchant and war fleet. It makes a lot more sense than sending 130,000 troops without tanks and almost without planes, ships, fortifications, etc, to defend the valuable area.

Keyes agrees with me regarding Pantelleria and even if he didn't truth and logic are independent of consensus. Keyes was the only one pointing out Churchills stupid policy of using CV for ASW in Sept 1939.
Nobody agreed with Winnie about German armament production, intentions and inevitable war in 1938. But as he said, even a fool is right sometimes.
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  #43  
Old 22 May 15, 16:34
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It is faster and cheaper to render sea going several insect class boats with a few tons of 1/4" plate for keels, instealled in weeks than it is to build an arm a large and slow 14,000 ton target with short range guns and a very large crew.

3 insect boats require 155 men and make a rather more difficult target than a single behemoth with hundreds of men. Their six long range guns are also more deadly than the 7 of JB (although not quite as good as old Marbelhead's, which cost toppins more)
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  #44  
Old 23 May 15, 12:19
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Quote:
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I suggested already that the subs be sent to the Pacific before the IJN strikes, in order to wreak havoc with minimum expense among the huge merchant and war fleet. It makes a lot more sense than sending 130,000 troops without tanks and almost without planes, ships, fortifications, etc, to defend the valuable area.

Keyes agrees with me regarding Pantelleria and even if he didn't truth and logic are independent of consensus. Keyes was the only one pointing out Churchills stupid policy of using CV for ASW in Sept 1939.
Nobody agreed with Winnie about German armament production, intentions and inevitable war in 1938. But as he said, even a fool is right sometimes.
Keyes agrees with me regarding Pantelleria and even if he didn't truth and logic are independent of consensus. Keyes was the only one pointing out Churchills stupid policy of using CV for ASW in Sept 1939.

I didn't realize that you had discussed Pantellaria with Keyes personally. How is the old chap? I thought he had died in 1945. It just shows how wrong you can be.

Incidentally, Churchill had nothing to do with the use of Courageous and Ark Royal on anti-submarine patrols, and Keyes expressed no such opinion.

You must be hearing those voices in your head again.
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Old 23 May 15, 12:33
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It is faster and cheaper to render sea going several insect class boats with a few tons of 1/4" plate for keels, instealled in weeks than it is to build an arm a large and slow 14,000 ton target with short range guns and a very large crew.

3 insect boats require 155 men and make a rather more difficult target than a single behemoth with hundreds of men. Their six long range guns are also more deadly than the 7 of JB (although not quite as good as old Marbelhead's, which cost toppins more)
I am not even going to bother answering this in any detail, as it shows an ignorance of reality that is staggering even by your debased standards.

However, can you not grasp that river gunboats have very little space aboard for fuel, be it oil or coal. The Insects had, by 1939, mainly been converted to oil firing, and had a capacity of just over 100 tons. How far out into the Atlantic do you estimate that that would get them? Get hold of a photograph of an Insect and look at her freeboard, then try to assess how long she would last in an Atlantic storm.

Enough of this drivel about using gunboats in the Atlantic. All you are doing is proving what an ignorant idiot you really are.
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