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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #61  
Old 10 Apr 15, 09:47
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If the ethnic Russians prefer not to live in the Ukraine, why can't they move to Russia? That is way simpler than moving the country's boundary. The Russians arbitrarily moved ethnic groups around for many years. Where are the Volga Deutsche now, for instance?

I moved from Louisiana to Texas. I did not want to, but sometimes you have to do unpleasant things in life. Texas is a fine place, but I miss my old house and my old community.

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  #62  
Old 10 Apr 15, 09:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
They arrived in Crimea when the attacked Rus. And they were allowed to go back in 90's.



There is no such thing as "ethnic Ukrainians".
Actually the tartars are the Natives of Crimea are they not. from my understanding. in the 1800s Russia was fighting wars similar to the Americans in the West.
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  #63  
Old 10 Apr 15, 09:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
Etmos,
I am bewildered trying to follow your concept of nationality vs ethnicity as it pertains to the rule of ethnicity over nationality in determining individual sovereignty.
I have documentation that my male decedents arrived from Holland in NA c1660. He was 14 generations ago for me, 16th generations for my Grandchildren. Yet, according to your philosophy, I am not an ethnic American? OK, maybe Iím Dutch. However, if you back up another 350 years, I could be a Frank, Saxon, Spanish etc.. Go back another 350 years and I very easily could be Nordic or Celtic. However, as we all know, the historical invasions of those areas still leaves me in doubt.

In your opinion what could be my ethnicity? Where would I be able to vote according to it?
Perhaps the difference is that the area under discussion has never been inundated with other ethnic groups.
great point and hence the problem with invoking the way back machine.
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  #64  
Old 10 Apr 15, 09:58
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Originally Posted by Khepesh View Post
I already pointed out that people have for reasons of simplicity stated they are Ukranian in recent census. Their passport says Ukranian, yet that does not wipe out their identity as ethnic Russians. You need to explain where all the Russians in Odessa went and were the Ukranians have come from, for apart from a mass exodus of Jews after fall of Soviet Union, the population has not significantly changed.
Just because it suits your argument that a number of people claimed they are Ukrainian instead of Russian, does not make the people in dispute "Russian". The original census you quoted had Jewish people as the second largest ethnic group. The Second World War removed just about all of this population. The present Jewish population is probably not from Odessa, but moved there after the war. Who is to say how many of the people in the census claiming to be Russian did not move to Odessa after the war as well? The same applies to all ethnic groups.

As for Stalin and Kruschev's role in all of this, we can only take it up with them.

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  #65  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
If the ethnic Russians prefer not to live in the Ukraine, why can't they move to Russia? That is way simpler than moving the country's boundary. The Russians arbitrarily moved ethnic groups around for many years. Where are the Volga Deutsche now, for instance?

I moved from Louisiana to Texas. I did not want to, but sometimes you have to do unpleasant things in life. Texas is a fine place, but I miss my old house and my old community.

Pruitt
You can ask the same question to the Ukrainians. Why do'nt they live in Lvov and don't try to impose their visions of history, language and culture at regions who are alien to them ? Why should the Russian-speaking regions being subjected to Ukrainisation and cannot oppose resistance ?

Quote:
Actually the tartars are the Natives of Crimea are they not. from my understanding. in the 1800s Russia was fighting wars similar to the Americans in the West.
They aren't.
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  #66  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
The only ethnic Americans for me are the Native Americans, the pre-Columbian civilisations. I consider that to be a distinct ehtnical group, you need to have phenotipical and cultural difference making you clearly different from the other groups. The time for it to occur can largely vary from centuries to millenia. You're the 14th generation American however there are those who arrived in USA only 2 or 3 generations ago. How they can be of the same ethnic group as you since they have a completely different background and time passed in the USA ?

But the question regarding Ukraine stays. If it used to have a major Russian population, why should Russia and Russians renounce to it ? In case of USA you share all a commun historical background, values and way of life. It's not the case of Ukraine where the heroes of one side killed hte heroes of other.
actually the native americans would be ethnic Russians
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  #67  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:22
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Maybe Siberians...

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  #68  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:27
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Originally Posted by craven View Post
actually the native americans would be ethnic Russians
Not really related.
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  #69  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:27
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
If the ethnic Russians prefer not to live in the Ukraine, why can't they move to Russia? That is way simpler than moving the country's boundary. The Russians arbitrarily moved ethnic groups around for many years. Where are the Volga Deutsche now, for instance?

I moved from Louisiana to Texas. I did not want to, but sometimes you have to do unpleasant things in life. Texas is a fine place, but I miss my old house and my old community.

Pruitt
What you propose is the ethnic cleansing of Russians from their own homes, interesting....
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  #70  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:36
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
You can ask the same question to the Ukrainians. Why don't they live in Lvov and don't try to impose their visions of history, language and culture at regions who are alien to them ? Why should the Russian-speaking regions being subjected to Ukrainisation and cannot oppose resistance ?
I thought Lemberg was the ancient capital of the Ruthenians? Then it was Lithuanian and then Polish? What language did the Soviets decree that was taught in Ukrainian schools? The Russian Empire had them teaching in Russian.

Here in the US the schools used to be taught only in English. This created hardship with my ex-wife as they spoke Cajun French in the home. She still had to learn English. She could have taken French later in school, but was too lazy to try.

There are ways to compromise on the issue though. Some schools in the Hispanic regions of the US teach in Spanish half the day and in English the other half. The reason US schools were mandated to teach in English in the past was so the children of immigrants could learn it.

I am a bit confused as to why some object to teaching in Ukrainian. I have read here that Russians claim there is no difference between Russian and Ukrainian. Are you saying there is a difference?

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  #71  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:44
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Originally Posted by craven View Post
Actually the tartars are the Natives of Crimea are they not. from my understanding. in the 1800s Russia was fighting wars similar to the Americans in the West.
They are invaders who came on the coattails of the Mongol General Subutai in 13th century. The Russian expansion east which began under Ivan IV in 16th century was simply "payback". I am not aware that any Native Americans had invaded Europe before 1492 and so become liable for any reciprocal action.
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Old 10 Apr 15, 10:48
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Originally Posted by Khepesh View Post
What you propose is the ethnic cleansing of Russians from their own homes, interesting....
Nope. I am saying they have a choice in the matter. Ethnic Cleansing is when people from other ethnic groups move into your home area and force you to leave or they will kill you. I hear they used to call the same thing a Progrom back in the old Czarist days.

No one should ever be forced to leave their homes. If the government wants to teach a different language, the residents should at least make an effort to try. If these residents don't want to learn, what should be done with them?

Back in my school days I could have learned a foreign language, but I was lazy and did not want to learn one. I took one year of French in Elementary School. I could have learned some Spanish or German later, but I chose Latin. Big mistake on my part! I thought we would use Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars as a text, I was wrong!

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  #73  
Old 10 Apr 15, 10:54
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Quote:
I thought Lemberg was the ancient capital of the Ruthenians? Then it was Lithuanian and then Polish? What language did the Soviets decree that was taught in Ukrainian schools? The Russian Empire had them teaching in Russian.
Soviet at first forcedly used Ukrainian and then changed to Ukrianian and Russian following regions.


Quote:
I am a bit confused as to why some object to teaching in Ukrainian. I have read here that Russians claim there is no difference between Russian and Ukrainian. Are you saying there is a difference?
Basically Ukrainian like Russian and Bielorussian are branches of ancient Rus language. But they were influenced by Polish and didn't had the reforms that Russian language had.

But the question stays. Why should Russian-speaking regions accept the Ukrainisation and don't have the right to their language as official ?
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Old 10 Apr 15, 11:17
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Nope. I am saying they have a choice in the matter. Ethnic Cleansing is when people from other ethnic groups move into your home area and force you to leave or they will kill you. I hear they used to call the same thing a Progrom back in the old Czarist days.

No one should ever be forced to leave their homes. If the government wants to teach a different language, the residents should at least make an effort to try. If these residents don't want to learn, what should be done with them?

Back in my school days I could have learned a foreign language, but I was lazy and did not want to learn one. I took one year of French in Elementary School. I could have learned some Spanish or German later, but I chose Latin. Big mistake on my part! I thought we would use Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars as a text, I was wrong!

Pruitt
Why would Russian speakers living on their own lands want to speak Ukranian, and why should they have to. Russian is the majority language in those areas, and most who call themselves Ukranian in fact speak Russian, not Ukranian.

You write this
Quote:
If these residents don't want to learn, what should be done with them?
And this is not at least a suggestion of ethnic cleansing.

Look, you are arguing from the view that Russians are "invaders" in Novorossiya and Crimea and should either leave or become Ukranians. You attempt to turn history and reality on it's head. They will not leave their homes or become Ukranians because you or anybody wants them to. They have the moral right to be who they want to be. It is their land, not any Galician's.
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Old 10 Apr 15, 11:29
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Look, you are arguing from the view that Russians are "invaders" in Novorossiya and Crimea and should either leave or become Ukranians. You attempt to turn history and reality on it's head. They will not leave their homes or become Ukranians because you or anybody wants them to. They have the moral right to be who they want to be. It is their land, not any Galician's.
The people you refer to have a choice. It is up to them to choose the best choice. They will have to live with their choice. You make it sound like becoming Ukrainian is a fate worse than death. I don't think it is. I would hope there is room for compromise between the two Slavic peoples. I don't see any evidence of compromise.

By the way, the Russians and Ukrainians were not the original owners of this area. They took it by force of arms. The Steppe Nomads used to keep the area unpopulated because farmers were easy prey.

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