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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #31  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
It's all a nightmare.

The vast majority of ordinary Ukrainians and European Russians are the same peoples. They are (used to be) like brothers. It is the Banksters, Nazis and other Fascists who purposely drive wedges between people who should be getting along with each other just fine.

Ultimately Gorbachev and Yeltsin are to blame for allowing the wicked people to make this horror story happen. Either of them could have prevented it, neither did.
The Ukranians, Russians, eetc., are all Slavic peoples, but they are not, and don't consider themselves to be, 'the same peoples.'

There are Eastern Slavs, Southern Slavs, etc., and they are different both ethnically and culturally.

Odessa was indeed founded by the Russians in 1794 by a decree of Catherine II. It is also true that it was built upon an older Tartar settlement. And it is also true that Odessa is a multi-cultural city and not just 'Russian.'

The Ukrainians are a distinct ethnic group from the native Russians and have been either independent or belonged to other nations/empires before the Russians got hold them. The abuse and murder they endured under Stalin and the initial joy at being 'liberated' by the Nazis in 1941 are two indicators that the Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia.

And for the Russian cabal on this board, no matter how much you deny these facts or denigrate those who put uncomfortable facts about Russia on the board, they are still accurate. Whether or not Ukraine used to belong to Russia, it is quite apparent that they don't want to be part of Russia, don't consider themselves Russians, and want no part of it. The Ukranians have the right to self-determination and if that means independence and the right to the traditional lands, culture, and way of life, and the Russians should accept that.

Sincerely,
M
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  #32  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:47
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I can see the Russians' appetite is growing. Rus, come to Poland or Baltic states to claim some territory. You deserve the land. We have a welcoming committee waiting.

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  #33  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:52
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Quote:
The Ukrainians are a distinct ethnic group from the native Russians and have been either independent or belonged to other nations/empires before the Russians got hold them. The abuse and murder they endured under Stalin and the initial joy at being 'liberated' by the Nazis in 1941 are two indicators that the Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia.
Told us more please. How Kiev, Tchernigov and other cities of Kievan Rus weren't Russian to start with. Also you should provide the fact that Germans get a warm welcome anywhere apart Galicia who are until those day a nationalist region.

Quote:
And for the Russian cabal on this board, no matter how much you deny these facts or denigrate those who put uncomfortable facts about Russia on the board, they are still accurate. Whether or not Ukraine used to belong to Russia, it is quite apparent that they don't want to be part of Russia, don't consider themselves Russians, and want no part of it. The Ukranians have the right to self-determination and if that means independence and the right to the traditional lands, culture, and way of life, and the Russians should accept that.
Then you should accept under the same considerations that Crimea, Donbass and other regions who don't want to be part of Ukraine should be free to leave it.


Quote:
I can see the Russians' appetite is growing. Rus, come to Poland or Baltic states to claim some territory. We have a welcoming committee waiting.
Then you agree that Germans must be there. I think that Germans can make a deal with Russians regarding how those territories should be divided. Probably divide Poland at Vistula. Looks good to me.
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  #34  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Why do you say I am just interested in Galicians? First off, do you mean the area in Spain or the area that used to be a province of Hungary?

I am a Louisiana Redneck as opposed to a Louisiana Cajun. My ancestors came from the British Isles. I also am Southern by the Grace of God. Dad was in the Air Force when I was born in California.

I have an interest in Military History and the Steppes have a lot of this.

So you are a Russian from Russia? Why are you interested in the Ukraine?

Pruitt
The major ethnic divisive problems concerning Ukraine come from the inhabitants of western Ukraine, an area long ruled by many different powers over the years. The geographic description for the area is Galicia, and the Spanish Galicia comes from this as it was seen as probably the ancestral homeland of Celts/Gauls before they migrated west. I could, and have, sometimes also used the term Carpathians, though that is rather slightly further southwest. The reason I and many others use the term Galician is to easily differentiate between those speaking Eastern Slavonic and those who are a wide mixture of other ethnic groups. Pre 20th century many different terms were used to describe the ethnicity of all the peoples of the area and to continue this is a nightmare, so Galician for those from western Ukraine is much simpler, and it is not an insult, simply defining a geographic location. However, the term is also to highlight that they are not native to Crimea or Donbass and have no historical or moral right to decide the fate of Novorossiya, let alone kill the inhabitants.

My father is from Omsk and my mother from Krasnodar, so, according to ukranian nationalists who claim western Russia to Kursk, Belgorod, Orel, and practically all of southern Russia, Rostov and Kuban, and some of these nationalists also claim historic Ukraine stretches as far east as Orenburg, then I am half Russian and Half Ukranian, so on their terms I have every right to be involved. Besides, as has been pointed out many times before, many many Russians have relatives in what is modern Ukraine, or have typical family names from the area, the "chuk" ending is the best example. How can Russia not be involved in what happens, it is the very close relatives after all.
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  #35  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:56
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
The vast majority of ordinary Ukrainians and European Russians are the same peoples. They are (used to be) like brothers.
I would offer the Ukrainians and Russians are more like distant cousins than 'brothers'. Strangely enough it is the Russians that claim to be 'brothers', usually before they claim to be the 'Big Brother' and thus are in charge!

One would think that the Russians have nothing wrong in Russia they could be focusing their attention on. Instead their politicians want to talk about the poor oppressed brothers in the Ukraine. That could certainly take the average Russian in Russia's mind off what their politicians should be trying to fix in Russia.

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  #36  
Old 07 Apr 15, 11:58
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This is a very complicated issue on many levels that a lot of people are unwilling to look into past what the political situation is telling you. Sevastopol, Odessa, and others on the Black Sea in what is currently Ukraine are historically Russian cities founded and populated by Russians from Russia.

Odessa has also had a large Jewish enclave in Russia. Out of proportion with other areas, the whole Russian Jew criminal subculture is from there. Why is there some doubt about this?

The Tartar thing is overblown, they were never "from" Crimea. They took it by force. Tatars also have their own autonomous republic in the russian federation where their language and cultural identity is protected by law. The exact thing the current goverent in Kiev wants to deny in the south east of their country.
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  #37  
Old 07 Apr 15, 12:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The Ukranians, Russians, eetc., are all Slavic peoples, but they are not, and don't consider themselves to be, 'the same peoples.'

There are Eastern Slavs, Southern Slavs, etc., and they are different both ethnically and culturally.

Odessa was indeed founded by the Russians in 1794 by a decree of Catherine II. It is also true that it was built upon an older Tartar settlement. And it is also true that Odessa is a multi-cultural city and not just 'Russian.'

The Ukrainians are a distinct ethnic group from the native Russians and have been either independent or belonged to other nations/empires before the Russians got hold them. The abuse and murder they endured under Stalin and the initial joy at being 'liberated' by the Nazis in 1941 are two indicators that the Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia.

And for the Russian cabal on this board, no matter how much you deny these facts or denigrate those who put uncomfortable facts about Russia on the board, they are still accurate. Whether or not Ukraine used to belong to Russia, it is quite apparent that they don't want to be part of Russia, don't consider themselves Russians, and want no part of it. The Ukranians have the right to self-determination and if that means independence and the right to the traditional lands, culture, and way of life, and the Russians should accept that.

Sincerely,
M
The Tatars were never native to the area of Odessa or even anywhere near the Black Sea, they came from central Asia with the Mongols, and those Tatars who had invaded Crimea and around the shores of the Black Sea became part of the Ottoman Empire until they were defeated and ancestral Slav lands retaken.
The rest of your post is as ignorant of facts as well. Before 1991 there was never any nation state called Ukraine. If you say Ukranians have the right to self determination, then why not the ethnic Russian people of Novorossiya, from Kharkov to Odessa, please explain why ethnic Russians in their own lands cannot have self determination?
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  #38  
Old 07 Apr 15, 12:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Here in the US we have a different measure on who is what. America was built by many different people from many different countries. Most people here that are born here call themselves Americans. I am a bit confused as to your reasoning about ethnic groups in the former Soviet Union. When do people born in the Ukraine become Ukrainian? You seem to be saying that people from the Ukraine with passports saying they are Ukrainian should be called Russians? Well, if that floats your boat, go ahead, but it is not very logical.

Who said where the tanks came from?

Pruitt
It's another reasoning in Russia/former USSR. Americans are a mix of various ehtnic groups just like Ukrainians are. From all points of view Galitians and Donbassians are completely different peoples. The territory called Ukraine today was formed by blosheviks using the lands of various ethnical background and history. Brejnev is a classical exemple of nationality changes.
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  #39  
Old 07 Apr 15, 12:13
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Quote:
The Tartar thing is overblown, they were never "from" Crimea. They took it by force. Tatars also have their own autonomous republic in the russian federation where their language and cultural identity is protected by law. The exact thing the current goverent in Kiev wants to deny in the south east of their country.
To correct it a bit, the Tatars in Crimea and the Tatars in other regions of Russian Federation are very different peoples.
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  #40  
Old 07 Apr 15, 13:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Here in the US we have a different measure on who is what. America was built by many different people from many different countries. Most people here that are born here call themselves Americans. I am a bit confused as to your reasoning about ethnic groups in the former Soviet Union. When do people born in the Ukraine become Ukrainian? You seem to be saying that people from the Ukraine with passports saying they are Ukrainian should be called Russians? Well, if that floats your boat, go ahead, but it is not very logical.

Who said where the tanks came from?

Pruitt
You rather implied were the tanks came from I think...
What I am saying about ethnicity is that a passport does not confer ethnicity, only nationality, which are very different.

A story to illustrate what I mean: A man born in Odessa in 1900 of Russian ethnicity was also a citizen of the Russian Empire, then at the end of the revolution and civil war he became a citizen of the Soviet Union and lived in an administrative area called the Ukranian SSR, but he was still an ethnic Russian. Living to a very old age, in 1991 he suddenly found he was now living in some new country called Ukraine and somebody thrust a Ukranian passport in his hand and told him he was a Ukranian, but he wasn't, he was still an ethnic Russian. His great great grandchildren today are told they are Ukranian, but only by passport, for they are still ethnic Russians living in their homeland. On the other hand, a person living in Lvov/Lviv/Lwow/Lemberg and anywere else in western Ukraine who is not an ethnic Russian can be whatever they want to be, Ukranian, Ruthenian, Rusyn, Pole, Austrian, Hungarian, Martian, Klingon, anything, as long as they don't try to enforce this "Ukranianess" on those who do not want it, but they do, and here we are in a nightmare.
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Old 09 Apr 15, 17:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The Ukrainians are a distinct ethnic group from the native Russians and have been either independent or belonged to other nations/empires before the Russians got hold them. The abuse and murder they endured under Stalin and the initial joy at being 'liberated' by the Nazis in 1941 are two indicators that the Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia.
First of all, define "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity. By Constitution of Ukraine, every citizen is a Ukrainian (a very nice detail revealing true intentions of a political nation)

Now, please explain do you consider Ukrainians having common history, culture, religion, ethnicity?

The differences between, Crimea and Novorussia on one and Galicia and Volhynia on the other are huge. And they were far bigger prior to Soviets. The third part is central Ukraine, east and west of Kiev.

During (especially early) Bolshevism and since independence, the systematic policy of "ukrainization" was in effect. In addition, there was significant "colonization" of historical Novorussia province by people from other, poorer and less developed regions, for obvious economical and some less obvious reasons. Something common in Socialist/Communist regimes (another excellent example would be ex-Yu).

I am all ears and eagerly await your explanation on the matter of "Ukrainian" and "Russian" ethnicity.

And another thing: don't you consider it odd, that on the other side of UA-BLR border, no such hate exists?
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Old 09 Apr 15, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khepesh View Post
You rather implied were the tanks came from I think...
What I am saying about ethnicity is that a passport does not confer ethnicity, only nationality, which are very different.

A story to illustrate what I mean: A man born in Odessa in 1900 of Russian ethnicity was also a citizen of the Russian Empire, then at the end of the revolution and civil war he became a citizen of the Soviet Union and lived in an administrative area called the Ukranian SSR, but he was still an ethnic Russian. Living to a very old age, in 1991 he suddenly found he was now living in some new country called Ukraine and somebody thrust a Ukranian passport in his hand and told him he was a Ukranian, but he wasn't, he was still an ethnic Russian. His great great grandchildren today are told they are Ukranian, but only by passport, for they are still ethnic Russians living in their homeland. On the other hand, a person living in Lvov/Lviv/Lwow/Lemberg and anywere else in western Ukraine who is not an ethnic Russian can be whatever they want to be, Ukranian, Ruthenian, Rusyn, Pole, Austrian, Hungarian, Martian, Klingon, anything, as long as they don't try to enforce this "Ukranianess" on those who do not want it, but they do, and here we are in a nightmare.
We shouldn't forget what happened to "pro-Rus" Ruthenians during WW1 and after.

And why the historical identity of Ruthenian/Russin was dropped.
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Old 09 Apr 15, 19:55
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Got a link in English for your claim?

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  #44  
Old 09 Apr 15, 19:57
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Got a link in English for your claim?

Pruitt
What are you talking about ?
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  #45  
Old 09 Apr 15, 20:20
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Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
We shouldn't forget what happened to "pro-Rus" Ruthenians during WW1 and after.

And why the historical identity of Ruthenian/Russin was dropped.
This is his claim. I searched for something on the subject and drew a blank. I am curious as to what he said. If it is in English, I can read it and judge for myself.

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