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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

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Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

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  #1  
Old 07 Apr 15, 05:57
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Odessa Russian, not Ukranian

Ukranian nationalists claim all of the current territory of Ukraine is theirs and has been, according to some nationalist historians, for 40 000 years. So, let's look at two snapshots of Odessa, which of course was founded during the period of Russian Empire by Catherine the Great, to see who was living there.

This is the 1897 census and in the left column is the ethnicity by the terminology of the day. "Little Russia" was used before the word Ukraine became commonplace and "Great Russians" used to describe all those who are ethnic Russians living in Russia as oppossed to those Russian citizens from ethnic minorities
Great Russians 49,09%
Jews 30,83%
Little Russians 9,39%
Poles 4,31%
Germans 2,54%
Greeks 1,26%
Tatars 0,36%
Armenians 0,35%



Here is a screenshot of a pdf document, a memory book, produced by Ukranian government to document the lives lost in the "Holodomor", an event that claimed the lives of people across the Ukranian SSR and much of Southern Russia with more Russians dying than Ukranians. However, it can be seen in this part of the document dealing with Odessa, and chosen at random, that out of 32 names visible the breakdown by ethnicity is:-
Russian 10
Jews 9
Ukranians 2
Poles 1
Germans 1



There are a further 9 names that have no ethnicity designated, but 8 of them are Jewish or probably Jewish. In the entire document it can be seen that while the 1897 census showed 9,39% of Odessites claiming to be Little Russians [Ukranian], in this entire document no more than 7% of people are designated by ethnicity as Ukranian. Here is the document, in Ukranian, for anybody to check http://www.archives.gov.ua/Archives/...amiati2008.pdf

Last edited by Khepesh; 07 Apr 15 at 06:14.. Reason: typo
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  #2  
Old 07 Apr 15, 08:54
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What are the figures for a more recent census, say around 2000 or so? I seriously doubt all the 1897 Jewish residents were around after the Romanian Army took the place and held it for several years in WW II.

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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:11
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2001 census :

Ukrainians 622,9 (61,6 %)
Russians 292,0 (29,0 %)
Bulgarians 13,3 (1,3 %)
Jews 12,4 (1,2 %)
Moldavians 7,6 (0,7 %)
Bielorussians 6,4 (0,6 %)
Armenians 4,4 (0,4 %)
Poles 2,1 (0,2 %)
Total 1010,3 (100,0 %)

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E...BD.D0.B8.D0.B5
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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:23
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
2001 census :

Ukrainians 622,9 (61,6 %)
Russians 292,0 (29,0 %)
Bulgarians 13,3 (1,3 %)
Jews 12,4 (1,2 %)
Moldavians 7,6 (0,7 %)
Bielorussians 6,4 (0,6 %)
Armenians 4,4 (0,4 %)
Poles 2,1 (0,2 %)
Total 1010,3 (100,0 %)

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E...BD.D0.B8.D0.B5
I can see why the OP wanted to use data over 100 years old then! That settles whether or not Odessa is Ukrainian. What claim is next, Kaliningrad Oblast has always been Russian?

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  #5  
Old 07 Apr 15, 09:27
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I can see why the OP wanted to use data over 100 years old then! That settles whether or not Odessa is Ukrainian. What claim is next, Kaliningrad Oblast has always been Russian?

Pruitt
It's about historical claims. Plus basically Ukrainians are Russians who felt under the bad influence of Poles, Austrians and others with bolsheviks sadly doing nothing against that.

Concerning Kaliningrad, nobody denies that it used to be part of Germany and Prussia.
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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:43
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Maybe the Tartars from Crimea will get their old homes back if this was about historical claims?

I have ancestors that came from the Isle of Man, the Isle of Skye and several that stayed briefly (in a historical sense) in Ulster. I may want to go visit these places to see what they are like, but I don't see moving there! Only two of my grandparents have a place they left that I might consider living in. I hear Kinder, Louisiana and Joplin, Missouri are nice.

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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:45
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
It's about historical claims. Plus basically Ukrainians are Russians who felt under the bad influence of Poles, Austrians and others with bolsheviks sadly doing nothing against that.

Concerning Kaliningrad, nobody denies that it used to be part of Germany and Prussia.
Maybe the ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be under the influence of the "Great" Russians?

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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:49
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I can see why the OP wanted to use data over 100 years old then! That settles whether or not Odessa is Ukrainian. What claim is next, Kaliningrad Oblast has always been Russian?

Pruitt
Odessa was founded as a Russian city within the Russian Empire, how is it not Russian?
Odessa found itself part of something called the Ukranian SSR, an artificial construct of the Bolsheviks used, apart for administrative purposes, to divide the people, to weaken opposition to the Bolsheviks, Stalin was rather "good" at doing this. But how does this trickery stop Odessa being a Russian city, built by Russians and with a Russian majority population?
Ukraine was newly created as a nation state in 1991 without any reference made to any of the population as to whether they wanted to be Ukranian or not, and many did not but were ignored. Why should this totaly undemocratic trickery stop Odessa still being a Russian city no matter which country it found itself in?
The latest census results indeed show a Ukranian majority, but this is a false picture for it is based on people saying they are Ukranian because they have a Ukranian passport. This is techncally correct of course, but it does not stop them from being ethnic Russians, which the majority are. On that basis, how is Odessa not a Russian city?

Absolutely no Russian claims Kaliningrad is anything other than an historical German city. It is now a trophy of war, which Odessa is not. The German population left Konigsburg, while the Russian population of Odessa remain. If the population of Kaliningrad was still majority German, tho still as a city within the Russian Federation, I would call it a German city, but within Russia. Odessa is a Russian city currently shackled in an artificialy created country that never existed before 1991 and has no historic or cultural claim to Odessa.
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Old 07 Apr 15, 09:49
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Quote:
Maybe the Tartars from Crimea will get their old homes back if this was about historical claims?
They arrived in Crimea when the attacked Rus. And they were allowed to go back in 90's.

Quote:
Maybe the ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be under the influence of the "Great" Russians?
There is no such thing as "ethnic Ukrainians".
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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:03
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Khepesh, first you make a claim that Odessa is Russian because most of the people living there in 1897 were "Russian". When someone else points out the ethnic Russians are now less than the ethic Ukrainians in 2001, that should not count? Then two of you guys claim there are no ethnic Ukrainians? These are some strange claims. Good luck on trying to make this all seem logical.

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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:06
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Maybe the ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be under the influence of the "Great" Russians?

Pruitt
Maybe people in the region do not want to be told who they are or who they are not, by people who are foreigners not only by passport, but by ethnicity and don't even live on the same continent. If the people of Novorossiya wish to have an identity as Russian, or to govern their own affairs as Russians, either as nation states or part of Russia, of what concern is it of these foreigners from far who have very limited knowledge of the history and no genuine interests in the region at all.
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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:11
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Khepesh, first you make a claim that Odessa is Russian because most of the people living there in 1897 were "Russian". When someone else points out the ethnic Russians are now less than the ethic Ukrainians in 2001, that should not count? Then two of you guys claim there are no ethnic Ukrainians? These are some strange claims. Good luck on trying to make this all seem logical.

Pruitt
You should read my posts more carefully were I state that people have said Ukranian on a census simply on the basis of a passport, not ethnicity. And that census was taken 14 years ago before the events of last year. A census now would give a different result, and not in favor of Ukraine. Please show all these ethnic Ukranians in Odessa, can you?

And it is not "Russian" it is Russian, while it is easy to put "Ukranian".
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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:11
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Well go ahead and annex it

After all a bear in tundra does as he pleases no ?
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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:21
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Well go ahead and annex it

After all a bear in tundra does as he pleases no ?
Not surprising that you immediately swing to the extreme and suggest Russian invasion, where I have simply posted about what Odessa and Odessites are. A pity that no so called "supporter" of Ukraine gives a damn about the actual people of Novorossiya, of what they see themselves as, as what they want, only of what Kiev and it's backers say they are. You go there and tell them what they are, tell them that you, on an internet forum, have decided who they are simply to serve your purposes here.
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Old 07 Apr 15, 10:25
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Maybe people in the region do not want to be told who they are or who they are not, by people who are foreigners not only by passport, but by ethnicity and don't even live on the same continent. If the people of Novorossiya wish to have an identity as Russian, or to govern their own affairs as Russians, either as nation states or part of Russia, of what concern is it of these foreigners from far who have very limited knowledge of the history and no genuine interests in the region at all.
This forum would have very few posts if only the people you approve of can post here, wouldn't it? I have no reason to tell the good people of the Ukraine who or what they are as ethnicity goes. Why are you so het up to tell them what they have to be? Let them make up their own minds without soldiers and tanks going down their streets.

By the way, I like Ukrainians. I have worked with several over the years.

If your grasp of the issues in the Ukraine right now is better than mine, why are you trying to shut me up? Reminds me of the old phrase: "Move along folks! Nothing to see here!" If you are right and can show it in good logic, you should fear no "foreign" posters with different views than yours. Maybe you want to only see views like your own?

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