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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Age of Formative Expansion

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American Age of Formative Expansion 1789-1830 To begin with the 1st US President & extend through the Whiskey Rebellion, Quasi War with France, War of 1812, & southeastern Indian wars,

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  #1  
Old 25 Feb 15, 16:11
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Monroe Doctrine

Hi

At what point in time did the US actually gain the ability to enforce and react effectively to any possible breeches of the so called Monroe Doctrine?

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Andy H
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  #2  
Old 25 Feb 15, 18:51
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After the Civil War? American pressure contributed to the French withdrawl from Mexico.
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Old 25 Feb 15, 19:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
After the Civil War? American pressure contributed to the French withdrawl from Mexico.
Hi Surrey

Mmm I would agree in relation to that instance, but if say there was an incursion in Argentina/Brazil, did the US have the power projection to counter it?
The general historical understanding is that the Royal Navy provided that power projection and assurance (because it also dovetailed with UK FP interests) at least until the first 1/4 of the C20. However I'm looking for time when the US said in whatever words, that they've got this or the British said its all yours, so to speak!

Regards

Andy H
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Old 25 Feb 15, 19:43
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Originally Posted by Andy H View Post
Hi Surrey

Mmm I would agree in relation to that instance, but if say there was an incursion in Argentina/Brazil, did the US have the power projection to counter it?
The general historical understanding is that the Royal Navy provided that power projection and assurance (because it also dovetailed with UK FP interests) at least until the first 1/4 of the C20. However I'm looking for time when the US said in whatever words, that they've got this or the British said its all yours, so to speak!

Regards

Andy H
The Royal Navy was relied upon by the US to enforce the Monroe Doctrine for decades. The US became a world-class naval power when Theodore Roosevelt became president, and that was prompted by the US win over Spain in 1898.

That I would think would be the de facto time, but I have absolutely no idea when the hand-off was, or if anything was officially said about it. The Great White Fleet, the building of the Panama Canal and the US Navy's growth prior to War I was probably the de facto period of the hand-off.

Excellent question and topic. Well done.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 26 Feb 15, 17:25
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Hi Kevin

I would agree that at the time of the 'Great White Fleet' the USN could interdict say a singular invasion, though I feel the lack of coaling stations and supply vessels would have hindered a longer campaign.

Though I've found no 'official' handover, it would seem post 1914 being the obvious earliest date.

Regards

Andy H
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Old 26 Feb 15, 20:20
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Mexico was a good example, but I think its proximity to the U.S. made it the exception rather than the rule. I think the first actual time that the U.S. exerted the Monroe Doctrine and force results was Venezuela in 1902-1903. Venezuela had defaulted on its debts (IIRC) and Britain and Germany wanted some payback. Germany was all set for some literal "gun boat diplomacy" and was pressuring Britain to go along. The U.S. stepped in and said "No!" (TR was president after all), and Britain backed down. She did not think Venezuela was worth undoing the "Great Rapproachment" with the U.S., and Germany was not exactly the biggest friend of Britain at that point. Britain acquiesced to the U.S., and Germany, who did not wish to act without Britain, did so as well.

Needless to say, Germany was right p****d and the Navy began serious war planning against the U.S. at that time (Operations Plan III). They could not get Schlieffen to go along with it though. While London was generally ok with the U.S. use of the Monroe Doctrine, some its underlings in Caracas were just as angry as the Germans, and when the Great White Fleet arrived, the British mission was cool at best to the U.S.N.
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Old 26 Feb 15, 21:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyan67 View Post
Mexico was a good example, but I think its proximity to the U.S. made it the exception rather than the rule. I think the first actual time that the U.S. exerted the Monroe Doctrine and force results was Venezuela in 1902-1903. Venezuela had defaulted on its debts (IIRC) and Britain and Germany wanted some payback. Germany was all set for some literal "gun boat diplomacy" and was pressuring Britain to go along. The U.S. stepped in and said "No!" (TR was president after all), and Britain backed down. She did not think Venezuela was worth undoing the "Great Rapproachment" with the U.S., and Germany was not exactly the biggest friend of Britain at that point. Britain acquiesced to the U.S., and Germany, who did not wish to act without Britain, did so as well.

Needless to say, Germany was right p****d and the Navy began serious war planning against the U.S. at that time (Operations Plan III). They could not get Schlieffen to go along with it though. While London was generally ok with the U.S. use of the Monroe Doctrine, some its underlings in Caracas were just as angry as the Germans, and when the Great White Fleet arrived, the British mission was cool at best to the U.S.N.
Outstanding thread idea!
It may be that the true answer is never. The above leads to the Roosevelt Corollary which is a major game changer to the Monroe Doctrine. No longer was it focused on European interaction, but among factions within the area and internal conflict within countries. In fact, I believe the only true use of the MD was post RC.
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Old 27 Feb 15, 01:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyan67 View Post
Mexico was a good example, but I think its proximity to the U.S. made it the exception rather than the rule. I think the first actual time that the U.S. exerted the Monroe Doctrine and force results was Venezuela in 1902-1903. Venezuela had defaulted on its debts (IIRC) and Britain and Germany wanted some payback. Germany was all set for some literal "gun boat diplomacy" and was pressuring Britain to go along. The U.S. stepped in and said "No!" (TR was president after all), and Britain backed down. She did not think Venezuela was worth undoing the "Great Rapproachment" with the U.S., and Germany was not exactly the biggest friend of Britain at that point. Britain acquiesced to the U.S., and Germany, who did not wish to act without Britain, did so as well.

Needless to say, Germany was right p****d and the Navy began serious war planning against the U.S. at that time (Operations Plan III). They could not get Schlieffen to go along with it though. While London was generally ok with the U.S. use of the Monroe Doctrine, some its underlings in Caracas were just as angry as the Germans, and when the Great White Fleet arrived, the British mission was cool at best to the U.S.N.
There was a earlier crisis over Venezuela in 1895 between the US and Great Britain. The US threatened "strong action" against the UK if the UK did not agree to submit a border dispute with Venezuela to arbitration.
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Old 27 Feb 15, 08:18
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Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
Outstanding thread idea!
It may be that the true answer is never. The above leads to the Roosevelt Corollary which is a major game changer to the Monroe Doctrine. No longer was it focused on European interaction, but among factions within the area and internal conflict within countries. In fact, I believe the only true use of the MD was post RC.
I would think, though, that the first real exercise of the Monroe Doctrine was the expulsion of the French from Mexico just after the Civil War.

Phil Sheridan was sent to the Mexican border with an army of 50,000 troops, and the will to use them, and the 'suggestion' that the French give it up.

Soon thereafter, the French left and Maximilian was taken and shot.

Seems to me that it worked quite well.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 27 Feb 15, 14:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
I would think, though, that the first real exercise of the Monroe Doctrine was the expulsion of the French from Mexico just after the Civil War.

Phil Sheridan was sent to the Mexican border with an army of 50,000 troops, and the will to use them, and the 'suggestion' that the French give it up.

Soon thereafter, the French left and Maximilian was taken and shot.

Seems to me that it worked quite well.

Sincerely,
M
I was looking at it more as a combat situation. However, your point is well taken in the overall use of the MD.
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Old 27 Feb 15, 14:52
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An interesting situation arose with the Monroe Doctrine with St Pierre and Miquelon next to Newfoundland was invaded during WW2. There were a lot of hands in the pudding.

St P and M was administered by Vichy France and Canada had a fear that the Nazis would use the islands as a refueling spot for submarines and was considering invading it but Newfoundland took the first action. Up until the 30's Newfoundland was a full fledged Dominion in which case it could have acted on it's own. However, it had gone bankrupt and reverted back to colonial status with Britain assuming it's debts. It therefore had to ask Britain's permission. Newfoundland had an ulterior motive, it wanted to eliminate the competition in the fishery. Britain demurred and requested of the Canadian government tio take it over. Canada was afraid to do it as it might be interpreted in Washington as a violation of the Monroe doctrine and the US had relations with Vichy. Anyway the Free French took it over, and that was a violation of the Monroe Doctrine that Secretary Hull got very hot over. The "So-called Free French" he called them which the New York Times shot back "the so-called State Department"

Very interesting article of the interplay between Britain, Canada, Newfoundland, the United States, and the Free French. A Tempest in a Teapot,Canadian Military Planning and the St. Pierre and Miquelon Affair, 1940-1942 Acadiensis Autumn 2003.

http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php...ew/10684/11369
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Old 27 Feb 15, 18:06
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Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
I was looking at it more as a combat situation. However, your point is well taken in the overall use of the MD.
The implementation of the Monroe Doctrine could, more often than not, lead to a confrontation and any confrontation that resulted by invoking the Monroe Doctrine had the possibility of turning into a shooting argument.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 02 Mar 15, 07:18
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Hi

Thanks to all who've responded and added some rather interesting material

I suppose the real difficulty with this question is where the line between the threat of action (and not just military) and real action (again not just military) lay in relation to the implementation of the MD.

To try and wrestle some semblance of a definitive line, I would like to discount all the other aspects (Economic, Financial and Political/Social) that would normally influence military strategy, and just look at the military aspect.

The USN was until the turn of the C20 and the advent of the Roosevelt Corollary unable I would suggest to even begin contemplate intervening against any serious attempt against the MD. I don't think it would be to much of a stretch to suggest that it wasn't until nigh on a 100yrs after the MD was declared that the US could live up effectively to the ideals that it set-out back in 1823.

Regards

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Old 03 Mar 15, 15:41
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As far as I know the USA did become involved in the Chincha Island War which was a naval conflict between Spain and Chile, Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador from 1864-1866.
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