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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Research, Reference and Historical Study > Science

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  #46  
Old 09 Feb 15, 22:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Geez Doc, those are long posts. How do you come up with them so quickly? Interesting statistical analysis though, BTW.
I just cut & paste from my own previous posts...
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  #47  
Old 09 Feb 15, 22:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
From the Wiki article on "Hockey Stick Graphs:"
This is from a 2005 paper in Quaternary Science Reviews...
So, what would it mean, if the reconstructions indicate a larger (Esper et al., 2002; Pollack and Smerdon, 2004; Moberget al., 2005) or smaller (Jones et al., 1998; Mann et al., 1999) temperature amplitude? We suggest that the former situation, i.e. enhanced variability during pre-industrial times, would result in a redistribution of weight towards the role of natural factors in forcing temperature changes, thereby relatively devaluing the impact of anthropogenic emissions and affecting future predicted scenarios. If that turns out to be the case, agreements such as the Kyoto protocol that intend to reduce emissions of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, would be less effective than thought.
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  #48  
Old 10 Feb 15, 11:01
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If you don't prefer the other graph, we can still use the one you posted:



According to the NASA Earth observatory, the rate of warming from 1900 to 2000 is still "roughly 10 times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming."

If anyone has specific data on multiple past warming events compared to the 1900-2000 AD period, we could do a linear regression to fact-check this statement, though I am unsure if data specific enough even exists.

The single best comparison would be the slopes of temperature increase for the first 100 years of the Medieval Warming Period, compared to the 100 years from 1900-2000. If data for other Holocene Warming events can be graphed in this fashion, so much the better.

Unfortunately, due to my schedule I will be unable to respond for the next several hours. Will be back soon...
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  #49  
Old 10 Feb 15, 11:22
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Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Not so fast.



The current, post industrial revolution temperature increase IS an anomaly relative to the 'recent' historical climate cycles. While the temperature itself is not abnormal relative to past peaks, the rate at which we have arrived here is.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Fea...ming/page3.php

[...]
As I discussed earlier, this is an example of "Mike's Nature Trick"... After checking the source, it turns out to be an original "Mike's Nature Trick"...
Temperature histories from paleoclimate data (green line) compared to the history based on modern instruments (blue line) suggest that global temperature is warmer now than it has been in the past 1,000 years, and possibly longer. (Graph adapted from Mann et al., 2008.)
Mann et al, 2008... Proxy-based reconstructions of hemispheric and global surface temperature variations over the past two millennia

Click this... EIV Temperature Reconstructions


Open up any of the **cru_eiv_composite.csv or **had_eiv_composite.csv files. All of them splice the high frequency instrumental data into the low frequency proxy data. To Mann's credit, unlike his previous frauds, he at least documents this one enough to sort it out.

This statement from their PNAS paper is totally unsupported by proxy reconstructions...

"Recent warmth appears anomalous for at least the past 1,300 years whether or not tree-ring data are used. If tree-ring data are used, the conclusion can be extended to at least the past 1,700 years."

The anomalous nature of the "recent warmth" is entirely dependent on the fraudulent use of the instrumental data. He didn't use any proxy data post-1855.

This image from Mann's 2008 paper falsely implies that all of the reconstructions are in general agreement regarding the claim that the "recent warmth appears anomalous for at least the past 1,300 years"...



By cluttering up the image with many reconstructions and plastering the instrumental record onto end of the graph, it's impossible to see any details.

Here are Mann (Had_EIV), Moberg and Ljungqvist without the clutter...



Zoomed in on post-1800...



And Mike's Nature Trick...



The Modern Warming appears anomalous because of the higher resolution of the instrumental record, it's position at the tail-end of the time series and the negative deflection of the Little Ice Age trough (ca 1600 AD)...



If the Modern Warming is directly compared to the Medieval Warm Period, it appears to be far less anomalous, despite the better resolution of the instrumental record...



Particularly if you clutter the image with multiple reconstructions...



The Modern Warming [I]might be 0.2-0.4C warmer than the Medieval Warm Period. This would be consistent with a climate sensitivity of 0.5-1.0C per doubling of the pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 level (the Gorebots say the sensitivity is ~3C). Although the difference between the MW and MWP is well within the margins of error of the proxy and instrumental reconstructions and could easily be explained by the higher resolution of the instrumental record.


References:
Ljungqvist, F.C. 2010.
A new reconstruction of temperature variability in the extra-tropical Northern Hemisphere during the last two millennia.
Geografiska Annaler: Physical Geography, Vol. 92 A(3), pp. 339-351, September 2010. DOI: 10.1111/j.1468-459.2010.00399.x

Mann, M.E., Z. Zhang, M.K. Hughes, R.S. Bradley, S.K. Miller, S. Rutherford, and F. Ni. 2008.
Proxy-based reconstructions of hemispheric and global surface temperature variations over the past two millennia.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 105, No. 36, September 9, 2008. doi:10.1073/pnas.0805721105

Moberg, A., D.M. Sonechkin, K. Holmgren, N.M. Datsenko and W. Karlén. 2005.
Highly variable Northern Hemisphere temperatures reconstructed from low- and high-resolution proxy data.
Nature, Vol. 433, No. 7026, pp. 613-617, 10 February 2005.

Instrumental Data from Hadley Centre / UEA CRU via Wood for Trees

More later.
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  #50  
Old 10 Feb 15, 11:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
If you don't prefer the other graph, we can still use the one you posted:


Which does not demonstrate what NASA claims. According to Ljungqvist…
The amplitude of the reconstructed temperature variability on centennial time-scales exceeds 0.6°C. This reconstruction is the first to show a distinct Roman Warm Period c. AD 1-300, reaching up to the 1961-1990 mean temperature level, followed by the Dark Age Cold Period c. AD 300-800. The Medieval Warm Period is seen c. AD 800–1300 and the Little Ice Age is clearly visible c. AD 1300-1900, followed by a rapid temperature increase in the twentieth century. The highest average temperatures in the reconstruction are encountered in the mid to late tenth century and the lowest in the late seventeenth century. Decadal mean temperatures seem to have reached or exceeded the 1961-1990 mean temperature level during substantial parts of the Roman Warm Period and the Medieval Warm Period. The temperature of the last two decades, however, is possibly higher than during any previous time in the past two millennia, although this is only seen in the instrumental temperature data and not in the multi-proxy reconstruction itself.
[...]
The proxy reconstruction itself does not show such an unprecedented warming but we must consider that only a few records used in the reconstruction extend into the 1990s. Nevertheless, a very cautious interpretation of the level of warmth since AD 1990 compared to that of the peak warming during the Roman Warm Period and the Medieval Warm Period is strongly suggested.

[...]
The amplitude of the temperature variability on multi-decadal to centennial time-scales reconstructed here should presumably be considered to be the minimum of the true variability on those time-scales.
All other factors held equal, instrumental data will always demonstrate greater magnitudes and rates of change than proxy data because instrumental time series are of much higher frequency, with far better resolution than proxy time series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian
According to the NASA Earth observatory, the rate of warming from 1900 to 2000 is still "roughly 10 times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming."

If anyone has specific data on multiple past warming events compared to the 1900-2000 AD period, we could do a linear regression to fact-check this statement, though I am unsure if data specific enough even exists.

The single best comparison would be the slopes of temperature increase for the first 100 years of the Medieval Warming Period, compared to the 100 years from 1900-2000. If data for other Holocene Warming events can be graphed in this fashion, so much the better.

Unfortunately, due to my schedule I will be unable to respond for the next several hours. Will be back soon...
Many 100-yr periods of warming and cooling exceeded the 10,000 year average.

The pronounced spike at 62-65 years on this power spectrum makes almost any 100-yr period have a far greater rate and magnitude of warming or cooling than the 10,000-yr average...



Last edited by The Doctor; 10 Feb 15 at 11:36..
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  #51  
Old 10 Feb 15, 12:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk View Post
I'll let Doc debunk the rest of your post but because I happen to know a few things about outer space I will comment on this statement.

The orbits of Mars and Earth have not changed significantly for many millions of years.

How much energy does it take to move a planet and how do you apply that force? Solar wind? Maybe in a million years but not in three or ten. Ridiculous statement.


From the quoted article:
"...we know the sun is not heating up all the planets in our solar system because we can accurately measure the sun’s output here on Earth."

This statement is also incorrect. Our ability to accurately monitor the Solar Flux over the entire surface of the Earth is limited to a few discrete sampling locations that are assumed to be representative for the entire globe. Huge assumption. Just correcting those numbers for the atmosphere is error prone as we don't have good data on the atmospheres vertical profile except at discrete locations where it is occasionally measured by a weather balloon.

These locations are not the same in most cases so "estimates" and "fudge factors" dominate the data. Satellites help but they also have limitations.


Therefore, the statement above is pretty much BS. This was even more true 30 years ago when the whole global warming fad began.

The Sun dominates the global climate. It's as simple as night and day and summer and winter. Those temperature variations are huge compared to "global warming/cooling" changes of a few degrees. Think about it....
One of the many flaws in the ACC/AGW "hustle" (scam or flim-flam) is that most proponents factor the Sun as a constant energy output source, unaware of or overlooking that the Sun also has it's own 'climate changes' or flux. Lastest data/research suggests it will start a cooling phase in next year or two that will last for a few decades, as presented in this thread;
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=154269



Here's a classic example of the above;
http://www.climatecentral.org/news/w...its-cool-18635
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  #52  
Old 10 Feb 15, 12:52
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Part Deux

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
[...]

Even the graph displaying the warming trends of the 20th century contains a telling bit of information:



Starting at around 1940 AD, the rise in temperature was suddenly interrupted, and would not pick up again until almost two decades later. Only something as dramatic as the widespread halting of greenhouse gas production (say, from a mysterious 'shutdown' of a large portion of human industry and infrastructure) could have produced this result.

Now, what happened to human civilization starting at around 1940 AD?

[...]
CO2 emissions did not decline or even level off during WWII. However, atmospheric CO2 actually stopped rising and possibly declined from 1940-1955, despite rising emissions, because cooling oceans were absorbing the CO2.




The stabilization of atmospheric CO2 concentration during the 1940s and 1950s is a notable feature in the ice core record. The new high density measurements confirm this result and show that CO2 concentrations stabilized at 310– 312 ppm from 1940–1955. The CH4 and N2O growth rates also decreased during this period, although the N2O variation is comparable to the measurement uncertainty. Smoothing due to enclosure of air in the ice (about 10 years at DE08) removes high frequency variations from the record, so the true atmospheric variation may have been larger than represented in the ice core air record. Even a decrease in the atmospheric CO2 concentration during the mid-1940s is consistent with the Law Dome record and the air enclosure smoothing, suggesting a large additional sink of 3.0 PgC yr 1 [Trudinger et al., 2002a]. The d13CO2 record during this time suggests that this additional sink was mostly oceanic and not caused by lower fossil emissions or the terrestrial biosphere [Etheridge et al., 1996; Trudinger et al., 2002a]. The processes that could cause this response are still unknown.

MacFarling Meure, C., D. Etheridge, C. Trudinger, P. Steele, R. Langenfelds, T. van Ommen, A. Smith, and J. Elkins. 2006. The Law Dome CO2, CH4 and N2O Ice Core Records Extended to 2000 years BP. Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 33, No. 14, L14810 10.1029/2006GL026152.
CO2 levels could have declined during the mid-20th century cooling and the DE-08 core would not have resolved it.

Anthropogenic emissions did not "catch up" to the rise in atmospheric CO2 until 1960.



Atmospheric CO2 was on track to reach 320-345 ppmv by the early 21st century before athropogenic emissions became significant...

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  #53  
Old 10 Feb 15, 13:11
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Part Trois

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
[...]

Then there's still the matter of the 1992 Kyoto Protocol. All joking aside, if manmade climate change were so easily debunked, then why have the major industrial powers behaved, and why do they continue to behave, in a manner that is fundamentally detrimental to industry? Factories demolished, oil and natural gas projects curtailed, investment in alternative energy, et cetera...
Because governments routinely behave stupidly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian
One would think that if manmade climate change is a myth or hoax, then it would have stayed on the scientific fringe, instead of having a significant impact on the energy and industrial sectors of the economies of not only Europe and the United States, but also nations such as China, which is often at odds with the US over a number of issues.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-warming/?_r=0
I don't generally describe it as a hoax or a myth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Hoax? No.

One of the most massive scientific blunders in human history? Yes.
It wouldn't be much of a blunder if it was limited to the "scientific fringe."



Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian
China destroys factories to cut down on air pollution:

http://nypost.com/2014/03/06/china-d...-on-pollution/

The loss of the factories resulted in nearly 4,000 workers getting laid off.
So climate change is nothing to worry about? The rest of the world doesn't think so.

This had nothing to do with greenhouse gas emissions or climate change...
Demolished in December, the factory was one of 35 closed or torn down in Pingshan county as part of the government’s drive to clear up China’s notoriously smoggy skies.
CO2 is not even classified as an air pollutant by the US EPA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian
The only ones who would benefit from denial of manmade climate change would be the major corporations, specifically those dealing in fossil fuels, that lose revenue and run into countless jungles of red tape because of increased environmental restrictions.
Anyone who pays an electricity bill, heats and/or cools their home or drives an automobile benefits from the defeat of Gorebal Warming alarmism and Enviromarxism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian
Even so, cutting down on pollutants and taking better care of the environment would make for a better planet regardless of the global warming "debate."
Only to the extent that it is economically sustainable. Pollution abatement follows a diminishing returns function.

Last edited by The Doctor; 10 Feb 15 at 18:29..
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  #54  
Old 10 Feb 15, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Only to the extent that it is economically sustainable. Pollution abatement follows a diminishing returns function.
I think that's the key. I actually can accept some of what the global warming folks are talking about - it might not be good science according to you, Doc, but if so then the opposition groups have some pretty terrible PR on their side because they're losing that fight.

But even if someone is stupid enough to buy into anything and everything that any global warming proponent offers, that doesn't make economically unsound decisions a solution.

Anything we do to clean up the planet and/or fight "global warming" has to be predicated upon the concept of sustaining the economy. Cutting off a limb to save a patient can be a worthwhile idea - killing a patient to save the foot is lunacy.
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  #55  
Old 10 Feb 15, 16:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
I think that's the key. I actually can accept some of what the global warming folks are talking about - it might not be good science according to you, Doc, but if so then the opposition groups have some pretty terrible PR on their side because they're losing that fight.
For the most part, it actually is good science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay
But even if someone is stupid enough to buy into anything and everything that any global warming proponent offers, that doesn't make economically unsound decisions a solution.
It's worse than that. If there really was an urgent need to slash carbon emissions, wind and solar are the two most wrong choices.

From Real Clear Energy...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay
Anything we do to clean up the planet and/or fight "global warming" has to be predicated upon the concept of sustaining the economy. Cutting off a limb to save a patient can be a worthwhile idea - killing a patient to save the foot is lunacy.


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  #56  
Old 10 Feb 15, 18:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
For the most part, it actually is good science.



It's worse than that. If there really was an urgent need to slash carbon emissions, wind and solar are the two most wrong choices.

From Real Clear Energy...







I try to stay away from this subject, but.....

Roy W Spencer . Intelligent design .
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Old 10 Feb 15, 18:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
I try to stay away from this subject, but.....

Roy W Spencer . Intelligent design .
Circumstantial argumentum ad hominem fallacy.
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Old 10 Feb 15, 18:39
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Old 10 Feb 15, 19:50
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Okay, I'm back everyone.

Aw Geez, what do we have here?!

Let's start off with the 'easy stuff' first.

From the thread Mr. Bock posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock
"Historic Global Temperature Drop Predicted"
The Space and Science Research Corporation (SSRC) announces today an important set of climate predictions that say a significant, if not historic, drop in global temperatures will begin between 2015 and 2016! Go to the Press Release page to read the release.
These predictions provide a specific schedule for the coming new cold climate which is expected to have devastating consequences for the world's crops.
http://spaceandscience.net/



Historic Global Temperature Drop Predicted
EXCERPTS;
Thursday, November 20, 2014 Press Release 4-2014
3:00 PM

The Space and Science Research Corporation (SSRC) announces today an important set of climate change predictions dealing with the coming cold climate epoch that will dominate global temperatures for the next thirty years.
According to analysis of the most reliable solar activity trends and climate models based on the Relational Cycle Theory (RC Theory), the SSRC concludes the following:
1. The Earth is about to begin a steep drop in global temperatures off its present global temperature plateau. This plateau has been caused by the absence of growth in global temperatures for 18 years, the start of global cooling in the atmosphere and the oceans, and the end of a short period of moderate solar heating from an unusually active secondary peak in solar cycle #24.
2. Average global atmospheric and oceanic temperatures will drop significantly beginning between 2015 and 2016 and will continue with only temporary reversals until they stabilize during a long cold temperature base lasting most of the 2030's and 2040's. The bottom of the next global cold climate caused by a "solar hibernation" (a pronounced reduction in warming energy coming from the Sun) is expected to be reached by the year 2031.
3. The predicted temperature decline will continue for the next fifteen years and will likely be the steepest ever recorded in human history, discounting past short-duration volcanic events.
4. Global average temperatures during the 2030's will reach a level of at least 1.5° C lower than the peak temperature year of the past 100 years established in 1998. The temperatures during the 2030's will correspond roughly to that observed from 1793 to 1830, shortly after the founding of the United States of America. This average lower global temperature of 1.5° C on average, translates to declines in temperatures that will be devastating for crop growing regions in the mid latitudes of the planet.
(Download the complete Press Release with comments from other experts on the link below)
Click Here to Download a PDF File of this Press Release
http://spaceandscience.net/id16.html
Flat no. There is absolutely zero evidence substantiating the above claims made by these pseudo-scientists. Even Doc was skeptical of those assertions posted in that exact thread. Furthermore, it requires only a cursory search of the internet to reveal that the so-called "Space and Science Research Center" (what a bizarre title, it sounds like a third-grader came up with the name!), is really no more legitimate than the Heartland Institute.

From this blog on mediamatters.org:

Quote:
You can see the punch line coming, can't you? Yup, turns out that even people who claim that global warming isn't happening think that John L. Casey, the director and sole named employee of the SSRC, is a "scam artist trying to get his hands in your pocket" who lacks "any credibility in climate research." Indeed, the SSRC's website acknowledges that Casey lacks both education and experience with climate science.
Quote:
The website further states that SSRC "maintains active communication channels with some of the world's best experts in the field of solar physics and climate research pertaining to the matter of the next climate change" but that "All full time members of the SSRC staff were released on December 15, 2008 and placed in an on-call status."

None of those "experts" or "members of the SSRC staff" are named anywhere on the website; Casey is the only one affiliated with the group specifically mentioned. Why aren't the other "experts" and "staff" named? Either Casey is worried about dazzling us with the big names he has behind him, or they are too modest to want to be linked to such an impressive organization as the SSRC. Or, you know, they don't exist.
Quote:
Climate skeptic Tom Nelson suggests that Casey is a "hoaxer, fraud, or scam artist." He also links to skeptic site JunkScience.com's take on Casey:

We think he's a scam artist trying to get his hands in your pockets but couldn't see how he expected to do so -- now he's told us. He's looking for 'meaningful funding' and he thinks the skeptic community might be eager enough to slay the catastrophic warming myth to fork over some cash.

We'd like to think skeptics are not a good target for scammers hunting the gullible but with Al raking in cash with his fear campaign it was inevitable some crook would try to siphon some off with another 'angle'. If you must give your hard-earned away bear in mind that JunkScience.com is always chronically short of funds.

In a separate post on Casey ("Looks like a hoax to me"), Nelson notes climate skeptic Leif Svalgaard's comments on Casey:

The 'Space and Science Research Center' and John Casey should not be relied on for valid research. I know of Mr. Casey and have checked his credentials and they are not legitimate. He has tried to recruit even me into his band of 'experts'. I would not place any value on the ramblings of the press release.
Here is the full link to the blog: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/05...om-scam/164798

And Here is some more informed information on the role of the Sun in climate change from the University of California, San Diego: http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmu...ge2/06_3.shtml

==============================================

With that out of the way, let's continue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
References:
Ljungqvist, F.C. 2010.
You continue to reference Ljungqvist as a means to debunk the notion that we are currently in an anomalous warming period relative to the past, as well as to refute the findings of Mann et al.

Let's see what Ljungqvist himself has to say about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Ljungqvist
“Our temperature reconstruction agrees well with the reconstructions by Moberg et al. (2005) and Mann et al. (2008) with regard to the amplitude of the variability as well as the timing of warm and cold periods, except for the period c. AD 300–800, despite significant differences in both data coverage and methodology.”
As for the notion that any point in the Medieval Warming Period was hotter than today:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Ljungqvist
“Since AD 1990, though, average temperatures in the extra-tropical Northern Hemisphere exceed those of any other warm decades the last two millennia, even the peak of the Medieval Warm Period”
But even then, the main point is not the absolute temperature, which, according to Ljungqvist, is higher now than even the peak of the MWP, but rather the rate of warming compared to the historical record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
All this graph shows is the periodicity of the Holocene Climate Cycle. NASA's claim was not that the periodicity of the cycles was being altered, but that the temperature is currently climbing at a speed 10 times greater than the historical average. Nothing to do with the periodicity of the climate cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
CO2 emissions did not decline or even level off during WWII.
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/CO2_Emission/gridded

Click on the image to start the video. Note the sudden crash in emissions by Europe and East Asia just after the arrow crosses "1941."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
I don't describe it as a hoax or a myth...
I was responding to the phrasing of the OP.

We also have yet to address:

1. Damage to the Ozone layer



2. Rise in sea levels over the past century



3. The Fact that the United Nations, (not just individual governments) believes that 'anthropogenic emissions' represent a 'dangerous interference' to the climate system, and educated, first-world nations have taken steps to combat these emissions that would otherwise be considered fundamentally harmful to their economies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Climate_Change

Number of Ratifier States: 196
Number of Countries in the World: 196

Last edited by BobTheBarbarian; 10 Feb 15 at 20:10..
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  #60  
Old 10 Feb 15, 20:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Okay, I'm back everyone.

Aw Geez, what do we have here?!

Let's start off with the 'easy stuff' first.

From the thread Mr. Bock posted:


Flat no. There is absolutely zero evidence substantiating the above claims made by these pseudo-scientists. Even Doc was skeptical of those assertions posted in that exact thread. Furthermore, it requires only a cursory search of the internet to reveal that the so-called "Space and Science Research Center" (what a bizarre title, it sounds like a third-grader came up with the name!), is really no more legitimate than the Heartland Institute.

From this blog on mediamatters.org:







Here is the full link to the blog: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/05...om-scam/164798

And Here is some more informed information on the role of the Sun in climate change from the University of California, San Diego: http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmu...ge2/06_3.shtml

==============================================

With that out of the way, let's continue:



You continue to reference Ljungqvist as a means to debunk the notion that we are currently in an anomalous warming period relative to the past, as well as to refute the findings of Mann et al.

Let's see what Ljungqvist himself has to say about this:



As for the notion that any point in the Medieval Warming Period was hotter than today:



But even then, the main point is not the absolute temperature, which, according to Ljungqvist, is higher now than even the peak of the MWP, but rather the rate of warming compared to the historical record.



All this graph shows is the periodicity of the Holocene Climate Cycle. NASA's claim was not that the periodicity of the cycles was being altered, but that the temperature is currently climbing at a speed 10 times greater than the historical average. Nothing to do with the periodicity of the climate cycle.



http://cdiac.ornl.gov/CO2_Emission/gridded

Click on the image to start the video. Note the sudden crash in emissions by Europe and East Asia just after the arrow crosses "1941."



I was responding to the phrasing of the OP.

We also have yet to address:

1. Damage to the Ozone layer



2. Rise in sea levels over the past century



3. The Fact that the United Nations, (not just individual governments) believes that 'anthropogenic emissions' represent a 'dangerous interference' to the climate system, and educated, first-world nations have taken steps to combat these emissions that would otherwise be considered fundamentally harmful to their economies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Climate_Change

Number of Ratifier States: 196
Number of Countries in the World: 196
Regarding the UN and Kyoto...



196 governments are dumber than any 1 government.

The US Senate would not ratify Kyoto. And the rejection was very bipartisan.

I'll get to the rest in the morning.

Last edited by The Doctor; 10 Feb 15 at 20:46..
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