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  #1  
Old 13 Feb 03, 13:04
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Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

Hello,

I've been following the news and the thread lately, and I don't understand why so many people in this country are buying into the administration and media's line that anyone who dares to agree with them less than 120% is a terrorist or worse or needs to be nuked or invaded or neutered.

Last time I checked, France and Germany were our allies, and not vassals or sycophants, despite what the hawks on the administration believe. (unlike Great Britain, which is pretty much like the 52nd State of the US along with Canada as the 51st) The definition of an ally does not mean that he has to follow blindly whatever you tell him to do. (that is called a servant or slave) After all, if you wanted to go watch a basketball game and your friend declines your invitation, would you break off your friendship and start flinging the most blood curling insults at him? Plus, one of the traits of a true good friend is to stand up and reason with you when they believe you are about to do something wrong instead of cheering you on. Whatever motives France and Germany may have, they should still be entitled to their position without having to be bombarded by public insults from the administration if we consider them as our allies. (different story if the administration today would declare them as enemies of the US) And if France and Germany continues to do their own thing, why should the American people jump on the media bandwagon and lower themselves in the eyes of the world by acting as a 3 year old child?

Here is a hypothetical to illustrate my point, Pakistan decided that India's nuclear arsenal is too much of a threat to the global security and decides to take unilateral pre emptive action against them. The US, perceiving wisely that the dangers much outweigh the benefits of such an action for Pakistan, decline to support diplomatically and militarily Pakistan's little adventure and actually advises Islamabad to stand down. The Pakistani government is furious, and started branding publicly the US as degenarte, spineless and other choice words. The majority of the people in Pakistan starts to burn US flags (I know they already do so, but only a minority though), take to the street and their media starts to air shows that directly insult the American people and American government and those shows are shown across the world. As an American, would you feel this is justified? (I for one sure as heck don't)

By the way, I am not an Europhile, but it is my opinion that it would be unwise to show to the rest of the world, at this moment when we need allies more than ever, that being an ally of the US means only one thing Indentured servant.
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  #2  
Old 13 Feb 03, 13:17
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Old 13 Feb 03, 13:27
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Well said josiahcy.

I think people on both sides of the Atlantic are getting too emotional about this and that's why you see this flare-up in tempers. Even in this forum, we have been flooded recently with threads where you see people insulting each other on a daily basis. Too many people can't keep their heads cool.

And irresponsible medias are just aggravating this. I have seen the cover page of the New York Post this week and it wasn't nice for France. On the other hand, I saw some French newspapers claiming back the Statue of Liberty (for those who might not know, the ultimate symbol of America's Freedom was created by a French sculptor. The statue was then given by France to the U.S. as a gift of everlasting friendship in the XIXth Century. Quite ironic, isn't it?)

The overall reality is that both America and Europe need each other and will find some sort of an agreement. Next weekend should be critical in that regard, after the next report from inspectors.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 13:30
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Unhappy Old Europe

Hello,

No, I don't hate Old Europe, it's just that it's getting tiresome that it actually think the peace works every time and all the time when in reality, a war might be necessary.

The Old Europe has been arguing that sky is red when in fact it's blue. It does not believe Saddam has any ambitions in redesigning the political map of Middle East nor it believes he has any WMDs, which is really silly since in my opinion Colin Powell has offered strong evidence of Saddam hiding something.

Moreover, in my view, the Old Europe has been spewing out anti-Americanism crap, and this is getting irkesome. Heck, nobody here in America is burning French or German flags, but yet, American flag is unique, everybody felt a urge to burn it, why is it? The Old Europe has forgotten it owed America so much, America paid the price in over 300,000 lives lost in a little war called World War II. After WWII, America gave billions of economic aid, Marshall Plan, to every country in the Europe. But no, the Old Europe never say, "Thank you, America!"

Ask anybody in the Old Europe, they will say, they think CIA would have planted WMDs in Iraq, always refusing to believe Saddam could do this kind of thing. The Old Europe wants to lift economic sanctions and do business with Saddam! Yes, that's right, the so-called bastion of liberty, equality, and democracy wants to deal with a tyrant from Iraq!

No, the Old Europe don't want to remove Saddam, actually, it would rather get into bed with Saddam because of one word, OIL. Yet, the Old Europe accuses America of doing this in order to acquire more oil, but what about Old Europe? I bet you my ass, the Old Europe would rather run over to Saddam and kiss his ass because it wants to reduce the price of oil. The Old Europe don't give a flying f**K about Iraqi people, America do, and could care less about everything else.

No, I don't hate Old Europe, but OVER THERE, they do hate America.

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Old 13 Feb 03, 13:43
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Old Europe, you mean Visigoths and Franks and guys like that, right?
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Old 13 Feb 03, 13:43
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Personally, the only beef with Germany and France that I have is their blocking Turkey's invoking Article 4 of the North Atlantic Charter. To refuse even the planning of deployments and consultations among their Allies, they are endangering an organization that has stood as a model of collective defence for over 50 years.

And this at a particularly critical time for NATO. With the dissolution of the Soviet Union, NATO is a force without an enemy. It still has yet to rediscover itself.

As for their UN moves, I support their stance. Containment of Iraq has, IMHO, worked well enough. Until Bush brought the issue to the front burner, Saddam was pretty well ineffective and a bit player on the world stage. The US policy has brought Saddam increased attention and raised his status in the Middle East.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:10
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I have to agree with TigerSquadron. The NATO split is looking pretty bad. Both sides should calm down, cease the war of words, and do all the talking behind closed door. After all, the issue here is war in Iraq and not war in Europe.

If we are going to force Saddam to disarm, we should not give him the impression that he is facing a seriously split front. Have you, as a child, ever taken advantage of the fact that your parents are split over your punishment by actually playing off one against the other to get off scott free? (I certainly have, but unsuccessfully) Same situation applies in our present case. Seeing the serious split, Saddam may play the US against Europe and vice versa, and though war may eventually break out and kill him, at least he knows that he will die "by taking one of the bastards with me", that "bastard" being the US-European alliance. (a highly valuable asset to the US, and maybe more valuable than oil in the long run in my opinion)

Tzar is also right, there should not be calls for taking back the Statute of Liberty. (gift once delivered cannot be revoked) The European press should not stoop as low as the American press, it would only make things much worse.

I don't think Europeans are anti-American. I just went over there last summer (to France), and most people were not hostile to me. (nor did I see flag burning) Most were just puzzled by our foreign policy, and politely disagreed with it and our president. But I did not see the same level of animosity there as I am seeing now in the US in regards to Europe. Though the European sentiment may have changed by now, but I think that is the by-product of the super hawks' comments and the media babbling over "Old Europe" reliving "Munich" all over again.

Whatever happened to "Speak softly and carry a big stick" doctrine?

Contrary to popular belief, most Europeans are very grateful for US intervention in WW2. I saw so many streets in Paris and other cities that were named after American presidents and generals that I couldn't keep track of the number. (and monuments too)
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:16
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Quote:
Originally posted by tigersqn
Personally, the only beef with Germany and France that I have is their blocking Turkey's invoking Article 4 of the North Atlantic Charter. To refuse even the planning of deployments and consultations among their Allies, they are endangering an organization that has stood as a model of collective defence for over 50 years.
I agree somewhat, although the defense of this move was that it assumes that the path to war is imminent, which France, Germany, and Belgium do not apparently believe, and that they want to avert war. On the other hand, if attempts to even plan for such a contigency are blocked, then yes it would seem to be out of line. Then again, the simple existence of the Alliance could be considered as the 'contingency plan', even though no specific plan exists. Membership in the the Alliance itself is the 'guarrantee'. Kind of like: "We'll send help if you're threatened, but your not threatened, so we don't want to blow the situation out of proportion".

I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit here.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:29
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Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

Quote:
Originally posted by josiahcy
Hello,

I've been following the news and the thread lately, and I don't understand why so many people in this country are buying into the administration and media's line that anyone who dares to agree with them less than 120% is a terrorist or worse or needs to be nuked or invaded or neutered.

Last time I checked, France and Germany were our allies, and not vassals or sycophants, despite what the hawks on the administration believe. (unlike Great Britain, which is pretty much like the 52nd State of the US along with Canada as the 51st) The definition of an ally does not mean that he has to follow blindly whatever you tell him to do. (that is called a servant or slave) After all, if you wanted to go watch a basketball game and your friend declines your invitation, would you break off your friendship and start flinging the most blood curling insults at him? Plus, one of the traits of a true good friend is to stand up and reason with you when they believe you are about to do something wrong instead of cheering you on. Whatever motives France and Germany may have, they should still be entitled to their position without having to be bombarded by public insults from the administration if we consider them as our allies. (different story if the administration today would declare them as enemies of the US) And if France and Germany continues to do their own thing, why should the American people jump on the media bandwagon and lower themselves in the eyes of the world by acting as a 3 year old child?

Here is a hypothetical to illustrate my point, Pakistan decided that India's nuclear arsenal is too much of a threat to the global security and decides to take unilateral pre emptive action against them. The US, perceiving wisely that the dangers much outweigh the benefits of such an action for Pakistan, decline to support diplomatically and militarily Pakistan's little adventure and actually advises Islamabad to stand down. The Pakistani government is furious, and started branding publicly the US as degenarte, spineless and other choice words. The majority of the people in Pakistan starts to burn US flags (I know they already do so, but only a minority though), take to the street and their media starts to air shows that directly insult the American people and American government and those shows are shown across the world. As an American, would you feel this is justified? (I for one sure as heck don't)

By the way, I am not an Europhile, but it is my opinion that it would be unwise to show to the rest of the world, at this moment when we need allies more than ever, that being an ally of the US means only one thing Indentured servant.
Sweet post, very good.

P.S.

Someone mentions article 4, NATO etc. That is a defensive clause and not offensive. Turkey's army outnumbers the Iraqi's and is significantly better equipped, so how is Iraqi going to attack Turkey again ?
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:40
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Re: Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

Quote:
Originally posted by markoy


Sweet post, very good.

P.S.

Someone mentions article 4, NATO etc. That is a defensive clause and not offensive. Turkey's army outnumbers the Iraqi's and is significantly better equipped, so how is Iraqi going to attack Turkey again ?
Turkey specifically requested Patriot missiles, AWACS and anti-chem warfare units. These are obviously useless against ground troops; but to one degree or another have a certain effectiveness against missile and air attacks. I think it's pretty obvious to everybody that Iraq is incapable of launching any kind of ground attack into Turkey.

Or do you not believe Iraq has any missiles or aircraft?
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:44
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Re: Re: Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

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Originally posted by tigersqn


Turkey specifically requested Patriot missiles, AWACS and anti-chem warfare units. These are obviously useless against ground troops; but to one degree or another have a certain effectiveness against missile and air attacks. I think it's pretty obvious to everybody that Iraq is incapable of launching any kind of ground attack into Turkey.

Or do you not believe Iraq has any missiles or aircraft?
Turnkey has over 500 combat aircraft that actually fly, unlike the Iraqi sh**e, they have a large AA army component, they already have US and Uk aircraft stationed there, they have there own CW units, and Patriot is toss, oh yes and no I do not think Saddam would fire missiles at Turkey. That would involve bringing 600,000 Turkish Soldiers into the conflict.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:58
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Re: Re: Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

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Originally posted by tigersqn


Turkey specifically requested Patriot missiles, AWACS and anti-chem warfare units. These are obviously useless against ground troops; but to one degree or another have a certain effectiveness against missile and air attacks. I think it's pretty obvious to everybody that Iraq is incapable of launching any kind of ground attack into Turkey.

Or do you not believe Iraq has any missiles or aircraft?
But germany has already agreed to send patriot missiles to turkey (AWAC aircrafts are a little bit more tricky as they can a) detect incoming missiles/planes and are therefore defencive but b) can also guide coalition aircrafts to their target EQUAL offensive.) yet they are still blocking because they want to first hear the latest blix report before they agree or disagree whether there is a serious threat to turkey (based on article 4) that'll make it necessary to start planing defencive measures. (and that sounds pretty reasonable to me)

Always remember that even increased defencive measures could make a war more likely. That's why the SU is/was (cold war) so concerned with the US planes for SDI/missile defence because if the USA would no longer have to fear a retaliation strike then the SU would have lost their nuclear trump card and might try to strike first as long as they still have the power to do so.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 14:58
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

Quote:
Originally posted by markoy


Turnkey has over 500 combat aircraft that actually fly, unlike the Iraqi sh**e, they have a large AA army component, they already have US and Uk aircraft stationed there, they have there own CW units, and Patriot is toss, oh yes and no I do not think Saddam would fire missiles at Turkey. That would involve bringing 600,000 Turkish Soldiers into the conflict.
YOU do not think Saddam would fire missiles at Turkey?
Well that settles it then. I'll call General Meyers right away and tell him he can forget all about that little Article 4 issue that Turkey brought up.
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Old 13 Feb 03, 15:08
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why so much hatred for "Old Europe"?

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Originally posted by tigersqn


YOU do not think Saddam would fire missiles at Turkey?
Well that settles it then. I'll call General Meyers right away and tell him he can forget all about that little Article 4 issue that Turkey brought up.
Well - think about your point. Article 4 is there for mutual defence, and they do not need defending with 10,000 Us yes that is US troops....smell the coffee....do you not even see why the US wants to base troops in Turkey ? Do you understand the hidden agenda ? Oh yes when you speak to General Meyers tell him I think he is a bigtime loser. Thanks
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Old 13 Feb 03, 15:47
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Re: Old Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Cheetah772
The Old Europe has been arguing that sky is red when in fact it's blue. It does not believe Saddam has any ambitions in redesigning the political map of Middle East nor it believes he has any WMDs, which is really silly since in my opinion Colin Powell has offered strong evidence of Saddam hiding something.
Well, I wrote a long article, discussing Colin Powells report about whether Saddam has WMDs, is a threat to the world/USA or has AlQuaida ties. As you've replyed to that article I presume that you've read it. You haven't commented on my conclusions but without any further argumentation from your side why my reasoning is wrong I think it is silly from your side to simly keep on repeating that Collin Powells report has proven beyond any doubt that Saddam has WMDs and/or is a threat to the USA or anybody else. Simply repeating over and over again that Saddam has WMDs and is a threat to US national security doesn't make it true, you have to bring some arguments or be prepared to be beaten on the battlefield of logic http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/show...&threadid=1539


Quote:
Moreover, in my view, the Old Europe has been spewing out anti-Americanism crap, and this is getting irkesome. Heck, nobody here in America is burning French or German flags, but yet, American flag is unique, everybody felt a urge to burn it, why is it? The Old Europe has forgotten it owed America so much, America paid the price in over 300,000 lives lost in a little war called World War II. After WWII, America gave billions of economic aid, Marshall Plan, to every country in the Europe. But no, the Old Europe never say, "Thank you, America!"
Oh yeah, its the old WW2 argument again *sigh* Could you explain to me again what the US involvement in WW2 has to do with germany now not saying yes and amen to everything that comes from the US ? Yes, you were part of the coalition that defeated nazi germany, as were the UK, France, the SU, even (later) Italy, Bulgaria, Rumania... I guess almost the entire world was at war with germany. Yes, the US suffered heavy losses in that war as did most nations involved in this terrible war. Yes, the US helped to rebuild germany and the NATO forces protected germany during the cold war. Thats all true and not forgotten and we are greatfull for that but please remind me what all of this has to do with current Iraq crisis ??? Or do you seriously expect eternal gratitude for the role of the USA during WW2 ?


Quote:
Ask anybody in the Old Europe, they will say, they think CIA would have planted WMDs in Iraq, always refusing to believe Saddam could do this kind of thing. The Old Europe wants to lift economic sanctions and do business with Saddam! Yes, that's right, the so-called bastion of liberty, equality, and democracy wants to deal with a tyrant from Iraq!
Anybody ? OK, I'm from europe and I don't think that the CIA has hidden WMDs in Iraq. Hah, that was easy to prove you wrong :P
But lets continue: The Old Europe wants to lift economic sanctions and do business with Saddam! Well, you seem to know more about europe than we europeans know, what are your sources that europe wants to lift the sanctions right now ? And I assume that you have sources to back your words, or did you just made that up ??


Quote:
No, the Old Europe don't want to remove Saddam, actually, it would rather get into bed with Saddam because of one word, OIL. Yet, the Old Europe accuses America of doing this in order to acquire more oil, but what about Old Europe? I bet you my ass, the Old Europe would rather run over to Saddam and kiss his ass because it wants to reduce the price of oil. The Old Europe don't give a flying f**K about Iraqi people, America do, and could care less about everything else.

No, I don't hate Old Europe, but OVER THERE, they do hate America.

Dan [/B]
Europe wants to prevent a war to get more oil ??? Were did you get that from? Lets look at it logically, if there is a war and the US wins they'll get ontrol over the oil = cheeper oil especially for the US. If there is no war everything stays at is is today = nobody gets more/cheaper oil. Were in this logic does europe gets its cheep oil ??

But you saved the best for the end: America wants to attack the Iraq to set free the Iraquis from their misery LOL

Sure, the US spents 100 billion dollars, bombs a land back into the stone age, killt thousands of iraquis and forces millions of them to flee their country for the sake of humanity LOL LOL
With just 1 billion dollar you could safe millions of lives in the third world but oh, I forgot, they have no oil.
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