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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #61  
Old 05 Sep 15, 16:32
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
They already have them. They are called cruise missiles.

...



Yes. An anti-aircraft/anti-missile weapons that does not run out of ammo until the ship is literally out of fuel. Better able to defend against saturation attacks.
China also has ballistic missiles that we believe will sink anything out there if they hit.

Cruise missiles have been around since the 70s. I'm talking about hundreds of drones coming out and attacking with cruise missiles.
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  #62  
Old 05 Sep 15, 17:30
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Originally Posted by MSC View Post
... I'm talking about hundreds of drones coming out and attacking with cruise missiles.
Probably, it's what we are planning to do.

X-47B Unmanned Combat Air System Carrier (UCAS), United States of America



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  #63  
Old 05 Sep 15, 18:04
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That's the way to attack enemy shipping first. UAVs with Harpoon type weapons.

Just to gauge their response. And find them.
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  #64  
Old 05 Sep 15, 19:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC View Post
Following orders is the soldiers job. Questioning orders is not acceptable.
Actually, questioning orders has been mandatory in the American military since the Nuremburg Trials. when the Nazis used the excuse that they were "just following orders".


Since then, it has been the duty of all American soldiers to question any orders they feel are wrong and to refuse to carry them out.

Quote:
Manual of Military Law, Pt I, Chapter VI, Article 24

Article 24 of the Manual of Military Law makes it quite clear that members of the armed forces have a lawful duty to disobey orders from their superior officers if they believe that those orders are unlawful. It also makes it quite clear that if they do carry out an unlawful order they will be held criminally responsible for the consequences of the order.
The publication of the Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict by the Ministry of Defence in 2004 reconfirmed the principle and made it quite clear that the duty to disobey a manifestly unlawful order applies to all superior orders from wherever they originate.
16.47.3 Orders from a superior in this context include those of a government, a superior - military or civilian - or a national law or regulation. A serviceman is under a duty not to obey a manifestly unlawful order.
Quote:
Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict, Chapter 16, Article 47

That a soldier can be held criminally responsible for his actions when following unlawful orders was confirmed after the Vietnam war when the US Court of Military Appeals rejected the plea of superior orders and confirmed the guilty verdict on Lt William Calley for his part in the My Lai massacre.




The acts of a subordinate done in compliance with an unlawful order given him by his superior are excused and impose no criminal liability upon him unless the superior's order is one which a man of ordinary sense and understanding would, under the circumstances, know to be unlawful, or if the order in question is actually known to the accused to be unlawful.

For the record, I'm one of only a few military veterans to have successfully refused to obey an unlawful order and been upheld.

Do you wish to reconsider your reply?
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  #65  
Old 05 Sep 15, 20:22
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Probably the best debate we've had so far on this topic.

One point I'd like to raise is the disparity in consequences of using robotic weapons in relation to who the user is. Last week's huge military parades in China brought this scenario to mind; if the Chinese government had possessed some form of autonomous AFVs when the video below was shot, how do you think it would have turned out?

However it was programmed to react. If the rules say run over civilians then that, if they say wait for clarification then that, if they say disperse tear gas then that.

Tank man's fate is unknown. He didn't get run over by a tank, but the Chinese army was there to disperse protestors and restore government control, not to wipe them all out or something. In fact robots may have been a better fit since you don't need to worry about soldiers getting scared for their own lives and breaking discipline in the face of people pelting rocks or what have you.
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  #66  
Old 05 Sep 15, 21:12
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Understood, however the point being that the CCP does not have to stand for re-election regardless of the consequences.

I'll give you a better one; What do you suppose the Laws of Robotics would be if they were written in Pyongyang?
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  #67  
Old 06 Sep 15, 01:32
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I don't think there would be laws of robotics as Asimov had it, but the thrust of the question you're asking is what happens when robots are controlled by somebody amoral (or with a different morality to us). The answer is obviously that they follow their instructions. But this is an observation, not an argument against it. Humans have historically done a very poor job of disobeying superiors for ordering warcrimes.
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  #68  
Old 06 Sep 15, 12:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Understood, however the point being that the CCP does not have to stand for re-election regardless of the consequences.

I'll give you a better one; What do you suppose the Laws of Robotics would be if they were written in Pyongyang?
Rule #1. No harm shall ever come to Dear Leader.

Rule #2. All orders from Dear Leader shall be followed unless there is a conflict with Rule #1.

Rule #3. Everybody but Dear Leader is a legitimate target.
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  #69  
Old 06 Sep 15, 13:17
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For the record, I'm one of only a few military veterans to have successfully refused to obey an unlawful order and been upheld.

Do you wish to reconsider your reply?[/FONT]
Was your superior reprimanded?

Now days if a soldier kills a civilian, they may face murder charges.

But not too long ago bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians to death was OK.

What happened?
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  #70  
Old 07 Sep 15, 06:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC View Post
Was your superior reprimanded?

Now days if a soldier kills a civilian, they may face murder charges.

But not too long ago bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians to death was OK.

What happened?
Laws changed.
To run with your example, any country that signed Additional Protocol I 1977 is bound not to carry out the sort of indiscriminate bombing you are referring to. On the contrary, back in 1945 the ruling law was Hague IV 1907 which stated that a city could not be bombed if it was undefended.

One could say that nowadays area bombing of cities, with the attendant death of hundreds of thousand of civilians, is no longer lawful exactly because of the WWII experience. Civilians began getting some serious safeguard under international law with Geneva IV 1949, and then received protection from indiscriminate attacks in 1977. Note that while some countries have not signed or ratified Protocol I 1977, their actual practice usually tends to comply with the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks on populated areas.
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  #71  
Old 07 Sep 15, 06:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoseDeafMutes View Post
I don't think there would be laws of robotics as Asimov had it, but the thrust of the question you're asking is what happens when robots are controlled by somebody amoral (or with a different morality to us). The answer is obviously that they follow their instructions. But this is an observation, not an argument against it. Humans have historically done a very poor job of disobeying superiors for ordering warcrimes.
My concern isn't that robots could be used to violate the laws of war, of course.
It is pretty obvious that while a human might refuse to obey an illegal order because of his conscience, a robot could be entirely able to refuse - and actually more suitable to refuse - an illegal order, provided that his programming was done correctly by someone who would define what is legal and what is illegal, and who would qualify anything illegal as an automatic don't.

On the one hand, a human would provide an illegal order with a second check against his own ethical standards and knowledge of military laws.
On the other hand, a human could be pressured, intimidated, cajoled by a superior bent on breaking the law. A human might not know the law in detail. A human might worry about his career and life. A human might be a willing accomplice.
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  #72  
Old 15 Sep 15, 21:20
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UK defense firm Selex ES on Tuesday unveiled an electromagnetic shield designed to defeat commercial drones.

After three years of development, Selex's Falcon Shield system made its public debut during the Defence and Security Equipment International exhibition in London.

The firm did not explain in great detail the proprietary technology, which was developed with military customers, but said drones can be detected, taken over and then flown to land safely away from the target being protected.

"Electronic warfare is the ability to control the electromagnetic spectrum," said Stephen Williams, C-UAV capability manager at Selex ES.
The Falcon Shield system is scalable to provide protection to any size of location from a small group of people, to a convoy of vehicles, to large-scale critical infrastructure or military bases.

"What we are looking to do is harnessing multiple layers of technology to counter this evolving threat from mini- and micro-UAS," Williams said. "Our solution is not one-size-fits-all it can address the full scope of what our customers need from operating in the middle of London to protecting large nuclear facilities."
...
http://sputniknews.com/science/20150...-uav-dsei.html
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  #73  
Old 15 Sep 15, 23:17
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Probably just overpowers and spoofs the commercial control channel the drone is using.
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Old 16 Sep 15, 10:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC View Post
Was your superior reprimanded?

Now days if a soldier kills a civilian, they may face murder charges.

But not too long ago bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians to death was OK.

What happened?
He was relieved after the death of one of his soldiers during the activity which I formally protested, primarily as a result of a formal request by the West German military and the West German government.

One of my medical colleagues, who did not protest the order, was offered the "opportunity" to immediately retire or else.

Long story.
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  #75  
Old 20 Sep 15, 01:45
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They have technically been used in war since World War 2. I mean v bombs where drones in a name.
Not true. V2 was a ballistic missile and V1 was an unguided flying bomb.

However, USAF stated using strategic recon drones in the 1950s and the British Army has been using drones for recon continuously since 1964 (SD-1(?), Midge, Phoenix, Watchkeeper), with significant improvements in imaging methods in the ensuing 50 years. Midge was a joint project with Germany, also a drone user since that time. France is another country that has been using them for many years.
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