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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #16  
Old 23 Nov 15, 10:19
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Also a Scottish issue
http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...te_slavery.htm
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Old 23 Nov 15, 10:32
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History has largely overlooked, and certainly no longer teaches us about, the brutality of the economics of the times and the actions that resulted. Human lives were essentially worthless unless they could be put to work, as the history of the British orphanages clearly illustrates as well. Little children there spent up to 12 hours per day picking apart tarred hemp rope, often with bleeding fingers, to be turned into oakum, which was then sold to be used to caulk the seams of wooden sailing ships.

For all of the high minded ideals and proclamations of the major world powers of the time, they all followed the same basic economic practices, particularly the use of slave labor. It just made sense to them at the time.
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Old 23 Nov 15, 10:59
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
History has largely overlooked, and certainly no longer teaches us about, the brutality of the economics of the times and the actions that resulted. Human lives were essentially worthless unless they could be put to work, as the history of the British orphanages clearly illustrates as well. Little children there spent up to 12 hours per day picking apart tarred hemp rope, often with bleeding fingers, to be turned into oakum, which was then sold to be used to caulk the seams of wooden sailing ships.

For all of the high minded ideals and proclamations of the major world powers of the time, they all followed the same basic economic practices, particularly the use of slave labor. It just made sense to them at the time.
You are a real fount of myth and legend. Picking Oakum was a job given to adults, children were set to spinning and knitting. See The Orphan in Eighteenth-Century Law and Literature: Dr Cheryl L Nixon Adults picking oakum were usually adult women in work houses. In the nineteenth century the work was mainly limited to convicts but it was also used as a punishment for Royal Navy defaulters
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  #19  
Old 24 Nov 15, 09:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny muir View Post
Not all white West Indians were the descendants of plantation owners. Before transporting captives out of Africa became a viable and popular alternative, the English looked much closer to home for a source of free labour.................
The book cited in the article (which I know have)makes it clear that 'the English' looked very close to home for their source of 'free' labour ---- English, Scottish, Welsh poor as well as the Irish.

The reviewer linked in the OP just dishonestly represents the book.
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Old 24 Nov 15, 11:50
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Originally Posted by bill shack View Post
A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-iri...e-slaves/31076


From your link,

The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.

So those were Irish "political prisoners" being sold as slaves. Thats not the same thing as for example being a black person born into slavery, or being a 5th or 6th generation slave as some black people were.

As for the American revolution up until the American civil war, the only folks I have known to be slaves were Africans.
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  #21  
Old 24 Nov 15, 11:56
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OP your source seems to be Anti British,

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Irelandís population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britainís solution was to auction them off as well.

^Reminds me of the rare occurrence when someone on ACG says something negative about "the Irish".

And then there is this,

In time, the English thought of a better way to use these women (in many cases, girls as young as 12) to increase their market share: The settlers began to breed Irish women and girls with African men to produce slaves with a distinct complexion.

"The English".. Well I dont buy that the English behaved as poorly as the above article suggests.
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  #22  
Old 24 Nov 15, 16:39
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James II wasn't born until 1633, so it would have been difficult for him to have done anything in 1625!

If James I is meant, then I should point out that he was not English, but Scottish. Also, where did all these prisoners come from, since the Irish rebellion did not begin until 1640? In that rebellion, almost all the killing was done by Irish people, both Catholics and Protestants, and the victims were also Irish.
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  #23  
Old 24 Nov 15, 18:09
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James I had no problem in chastising Scots. The Scottish Kings were never as powerful as English Kings. The Scots were always rebelling and launching cross border raids. They were not above raiding their neighbors! It took many years to get control of the border between Scotland and England. They even tried to expel all Grahams along this border. The Grahams lived on both sides of the border and had many relatives and allies.

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Old 25 Nov 15, 07:32
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Yes, I know about Scottish kings campaigning against their own subjects: I was just pointing out that many - perhaps most - atrocities in the British Isles were committed by the Scots, Welsh and Irish, rather than the English, contrary to what is claimed in the article mentioned above.
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Old 25 Nov 15, 10:16
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Read up on Oliver Cromwell's campaigns against Royalists in England and you might change your mind. Also, the Welsh and Irish seldom spent quality time in England! The Scots had a habit of raiding into North England when they could! It was one of the few times the Lowlanders would fight for the Scottish King. They would get a certain amount of plunder and then head home! The Highlanders would raid the English and Lowland Scots going into England and on the way home!

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Old 30 Nov 15, 18:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Read up on Oliver Cromwell's campaigns against Royalists in England and you might change your mind. Also, the Welsh and Irish seldom spent quality time in England! The Scots had a habit of raiding into North England when they could! It was one of the few times the Lowlanders would fight for the Scottish King. They would get a certain amount of plunder and then head home! The Highlanders would raid the English and Lowland Scots going into England and on the way home!

Pruitt
Wales was quite Royalist during the Civil War and Wales was described as a 'recruiting ground of the Kings Infantry'.

From Tudor times there was a regular much used trade (immigrant) route from Mid-South Wales to London especially.

The were many 'London Welsh' of all classes.
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Old 02 Dec 15, 05:23
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Pruitt wrote:

Quote:
Read up on Oliver Cromwell's campaigns against Royalists in England and you might change your mind. Also, the Welsh and Irish seldom spent quality time in England! The Scots had a habit of raiding into North England when they could! It was one of the few times the Lowlanders would fight for the Scottish King. They would get a certain amount of plunder and then head home! The Highlanders would raid the English and Lowland Scots going into England and on the way home!
Thank you for the advice, but I have read a good deal about the period.

The problem here is that I think you've missed the point. Someone tried to blame the English for all the deaths in the Irish wars of 1640-9, and I pointed out that the great majority of the fighting during that period was between different Irish factions - there were relatively few English troops there up until 1648-9 because of the civil war in England, and therefore the great majority of deaths would be due to one group of Irish or the other. Even if you choose not to count the settlers as 'Irish', the fact is that between two-thirds and three-quarters of them were Scots. It is just ignorant prejudice to blame 'the English' for all these deaths.

Another example would be the aftermath of the Battle of Philiphaugh, where some of the survivors, plus women and children, were slaughtered despite a promise of mercy. I've seen this blamed on English troops even though the perpetrators were Scottish Covenanters.

You also seem to rather sanitise the Scottish raiding: there was plenty of rape and murder involved, but when the English got justifiably annoyed and repaid the Scots in kind, they were branded as brutal 'oppressors'.
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Old 02 Dec 15, 09:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Read up on Oliver Cromwell's campaigns against Royalists in England and you might change your mind. Also, the Welsh and Irish seldom spent quality time in England! The Scots had a habit of raiding into North England when they could! It was one of the few times the Lowlanders would fight for the Scottish King. They would get a certain amount of plunder and then head home! The Highlanders would raid the English and Lowland Scots going into England and on the way home!

Pruitt
Irish historians have done just that (especially Cromwell's campaign in Ireland), So I suggest you look at their findings.

Paul
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Old 02 Dec 15, 14:27
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