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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #1  
Old 20 Jan 15, 13:31
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The Irish slave trade

A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-iri...e-slaves/31076
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  #2  
Old 20 Jan 15, 13:52
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Originally Posted by bill shack View Post
A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-iri...e-slaves/31076
Not sure what this has got to do with the US civil war

I also notice the author does not list his sources and uses the term British when the act of Union was not around during the 1600's though as he is just blaming the English and not Scotland (actively settling Ulster at the time) or Wales I guess it doesn't matter but even so.
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Old 20 Jan 15, 14:07
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Myth.

http://www.academia.edu/9475964/The_...n_the_Colonies
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Old 21 Jan 15, 21:14
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A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.
As the article posted by 67th Tigers show's, it's complete BS.
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Old 22 Jan 15, 06:01
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Yep, and that site seems a little dodgy.
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Old 24 Jan 15, 03:34
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Load of Rubbish.

If they had really been on the ball they would have mentioned the transportation of Irish felons in irons to Australia. After all, if they are intent on laying the poison why half do the job ?

But perhaps that will follow in a second episode.
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Old 24 Jan 15, 06:14
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Load of Rubbish.

If they had really been on the ball they would have mentioned the transportation of Irish felons in irons to Australia. After all, if they are intent on laying the poison why half do the job ?

But perhaps that will follow in a second episode.
Exactly, another thing to think about is the progeny of the convicts, plus the fact that not all sentences were life sentences. P!ss poor history.
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Old 24 Jan 15, 07:46
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Load of Rubbish.

If they had really been on the ball they would have mentioned the transportation of Irish felons in irons to Australia.
I suppose they must have some sort of intelligence to realise that they came from all over Britain.

Paul
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Old 30 Jan 15, 18:33
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Fire? Maybe not, but there's smoke aplenty!

For what it's worth, historian Alan Taylor (he of 2 Pulitzer Prizes), gives a decent enough run down on Indentured Servants, giving way to Slavery in the West Indies in his 2001 work, "American Colonies, The Settling of North America". He states that "Most early Barbadans came as indentured servants, initially from England, but increasingly from Scotland and Ireland as well." ... "Positive incentives decayed after 1635, masters resorted more frequently, and more brutally to punishment. They contemptuously referred to their servants as 'white slaves' and applied the whip to drive them - language and measures unthinkable in England" etc. As given in his bibliography, Taylor notes:

Hilary McD Beckles, "A ‘riotous and unruly lot': Irish indentured servants and Freemen in the English West Indies, 1644-1713", William and Mary Quarterly XLVII, 3rd Serv., 1990, 503-22.


Consider the following from Britain's, "The National Archives, Kew" website:

http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...the-caribbean/

Irish indentured labour in the Caribbean

Monday 11 March 2013 | Michael Mahoney | Records and research |

Whilst doing research for the ‘Caribbean through a lens‘ user participation project, a chance phone call from a community group in Birmingham led to the uncovering of a remarkable hidden history of Irish servants or indentured labour being employed on English owned plantations in the Caribbean. At The National Archives, we have unique documentation that demonstrates the sale of indentured labour before, during and after the English Civil War of the 17th century. 1 Many thousands of dispossessed Catholic Irish men, women and children were transported either willingly or unwillingly in this period to work on new sugar and tobacco plantations in Barbados, Jamaica and the smaller Caribbean islands including St Kitts, Nevis, Antigua and Montserrat.

There has been a deal of controversy amongst writers on this subject in the descriptions of Irish indentured labour as ‘slaves’ or ‘servants’. Certainly it can be argued that willing indenture agreements were signed by individuals and a shipper in which the individual agreed to sell his services for a period of time in exchange for passage, housing, food, clothing, and usually a piece of land at the end of the term of service. However, during the post Civil War period many can be described as ‘political prisoners’ after their land was confiscated by the Cromwellian regime, driven from their land to waiting ships and transported to English colonies. The scarcity of detailed information on the servant trade makes it impossible to ascertain accurately what proportion of labour was involuntary, but the evidence strongly suggests that there was a lively traffic in deportees, especially in the period 1650-1659. In 1658, for example, Thomas Povey, an English merchant with extensive West Indian investments, stated that the majority of Irish servants in Barbados and St Kitts had been transported by the English state for treason. 2

Moreover, John Scott, an English adventurer who travelled in the West Indies during the Commonwealth, saw Irish servants working in field gangs with slaves, “without stockings under the scorching sun”. The Irish, he wrote, were “derided by the negroes, and branded with the Epithet of ‘white slaves’” 3

One historian, Thomas Addis Emmet, asserts that most Irish individuals appeared in English records as English. No vessel was allowed to sail from Ireland direct, but by law was obliged first to visit an English port before clearance papers could be obtained. Consequently, every such Irish emigrant crossing in an Irish or English vessel appeared in the official records as English, for the voyage did not begin according to law until the ship cleared from an English port. 4

Once in the Caribbean, many plantation owners considered servants and freemen from Ireland as a potentially subversive lot who had to be controlled and kept in a labouring status. The English government allegedly referred to the Irish as: rogues, vagabonds, rebels, neutrals, felons and military prisoners. 5 Punishments for attempted escapes included branding the letters ‘FT’ (Fugitive Traitor) on the servant’s forehead.

One assembly member in Barbados is quoted in 1667 as stating, ‘We have more than a good many Irish amongst us, therefore I am for the downright Scott, who I am certain will fight without a crucifix about his neck’. 6

By the third quarter of the 17th century on the island of Montserrat, the Irish immigrants were in the ascendancy. A 1678 census shows a vibrant community of almost 1,900 Irish men, women and children – a verifiable 50% of the population – existing as either indentured servants or freemen. Comparable figures for the other Leeward Islands were 26% Irish on Antigua, 22% on Nevis, and 10% on St Christopher. 7

Successive governors promised immigrants religious tolerance and easy access to land ownership, and servants from Ireland as well as Irish freemen from Barbados and the Leeward Islands responded in the period 1660-1700. Jamaica became the leading West Indian destination for Irish and English servants departing from Kinsale, Bristol and London in this period.

The legacy of such a diaspora today is that on several of the Caribbean islands there are place names such as Cork Hill, Kinsale and Roche’s Mountain from the Emerald Isle. In islands such as Montserrat, St Patrick’s Day is a national holiday among the inhabitants and the telephone directory contains page after page of Irish names such as Allens, Ryans, Daley’s, Farrell’s Riley’s and Sweeney’s.

Notes:

1. See HCA 30/636, CO 1/21 and CO 1/42. ^
2. Thomas Povey’s Diary, British Library, MS 12410, Folio 10 ^
3. Catalogue reference: CO 1/21, no. 170 ^
4. Thomas Addis Emmet, Ireland Under English Rule, 1903, page 211. ^
5. Richard S. Dunn, Sugar and Slaves 1624-1713, Jonathan Cape, 1973. ^
6. Catalogue reference: CO 1/21, folio 108. ^
7. Hilary McD Beckles, A ‘riotous and unruly lot’: Irish indentured servants and Freemen in the English West Indies, 1644-1713, William and Mary Quarterly XLVII, 1990. ^



Consider the Hogan, academia.edu paper provided to counter Jordan & Walsh, "The Forgotten “White” Slaves" etc.



The Myth of “Irish Slaves” in the Colonies,

Liam Hogan, University of Limerick, Arts and Humanities, Alumnus

Abstract:
Recent years have seen the marked growth of the “Irish slaves” narrative, which is itself a subset of the “white slavery” myth. This myth has always existed in ultranationalist and white supremacist circles, and their promotion of it frequently occurs on social media. The myth has recently gone viral, partly due to the decision by popular newspapers and websites to endorse a spurious “Irish Slave Trade” article that conflates indentured servitude or forced labour with chattel slavery. Surprisingly, this claim has gone relatively unchallenged in the public domain, thus this paper will analyse its veracity.


So, does Hogan win the "Slave" battle over Jordan & Walsh? Yes, I think so, but Taylor and Mahoney win the War, regarding treatment of Irish "Indentured Servants" by their English Employers in the Caribbean Colonies.





Quote:
Originally Posted by bill shack View Post
A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-iri...e-slaves/31076
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Old 30 Jan 15, 19:03
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Quite simply its a Dishonest (bigoted racist?) review of a book, the actual book is apparently quite good (haven't read it myself but know people who have and say its good) but its NOT about Irish slaves but British and Irish ones.

The blogger just wishes to twist the work to support his own bias.

"..... Don Jordan and Michael Walsh have produced an excellent review of the trade in human cargo from Ireland and England in the 17th Century. Up to 300,000 people, mostly politicial prisoners, the poor, vagrants and street children across England and Ireland were forcibly rounded up and shipped to America where they became slaves in all but name. The book covers the role of the slave trading routes as people were transported from Bristol in slave ships to be bought and sold on arrival in the New World..."

http://www.historyjournal.ie/book-re...ite-cargo.html


The Telegraph does a good review

".....Most shocking of all, thousands of poor London children were rounded up by the constables and thrown on to the nearest ship. Urchins as young as five were shipped to America, where they spent most of their lives in backbreaking service. Few lived long enough to reach adulthood......

.......The book is subtitled and marketed as the "forgotten history of Britain's white slaves in America". Yet as the authors admit, indentured servants were not slaves. It is true that they were dreadfully treated; indeed, Barbados planters often treated their slaves better than their servants, because the former were so vital to their economic success. The authors are right to remind us that African slavery was one form of bondage among many, rather than a unique and unprecedented condition....."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...te-slaves.html


So its NOT Irish 'Slaves' (if they were slaves at all a different discussion) but British and Irish slaves the reviewer just decides to misrepresent the book for whatever reason -- I suspect a bigoted nationalist.
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Old 30 Jan 15, 21:07
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Well said ...

... chattel indenture i.e. chattel slavery, in all but name for many. Hogan's contribution, which amounts to a peripheral assault on nomenclature, is certainly less than honest.

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Quite simply its a Dishonest (bigoted racist?) review of a book, the actual book is apparently quite good (haven't read it myself but know people who have and say its good) but its NOT about Irish slaves but British and Irish ones.

The blogger just wishes to twist the work to support his own bias.

"..... Don Jordan and Michael Walsh have produced an excellent review of the trade in human cargo from Ireland and England in the 17th Century. Up to 300,000 people, mostly politicial prisoners, the poor, vagrants and street children across England and Ireland were forcibly rounded up and shipped to America where they became slaves in all but name. The book covers the role of the slave trading routes as people were transported from Bristol in slave ships to be bought and sold on arrival in the New World..."

http://www.historyjournal.ie/book-re...ite-cargo.html


The Telegraph does a good review

".....Most shocking of all, thousands of poor London children were rounded up by the constables and thrown on to the nearest ship. Urchins as young as five were shipped to America, where they spent most of their lives in backbreaking service. Few lived long enough to reach adulthood......

.......The book is subtitled and marketed as the "forgotten history of Britain's white slaves in America". Yet as the authors admit, indentured servants were not slaves. It is true that they were dreadfully treated; indeed, Barbados planters often treated their slaves better than their servants, because the former were so vital to their economic success. The authors are right to remind us that African slavery was one form of bondage among many, rather than a unique and unprecedented condition....."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...te-slaves.html


So its NOT Irish 'Slaves' (if they were slaves at all a different discussion) but British and Irish slaves the reviewer just decides to misrepresent the book for whatever reason -- I suspect a bigoted nationalist.
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Old 30 Jan 15, 21:35
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I don't want to go off thread. It seems the major focus of the thread is Indentured Servants in the Caribbean. Would an inclusion of something like King Phillip's War be off topic?
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Old 31 Jan 15, 12:13
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I'm with History Fan in trying to figure out how this fits in the ACW. Not all discussions of slavery belong in this time period.
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Old 22 Nov 15, 14:30
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Not all white West Indians were the descendants of plantation owners. Before transporting captives out of Africa became a viable and popular alternative, the English looked much closer to home for a source of free labour. Putting the Irish to use in sugar-cane fields the other side of the world not only met the demand there for agricultural labour but also greatly reduced the population of their unruly European neighbour. The Irish slave trade began with James II, who in 1625 sent 30,000 Irish political prisoners over to the colony of Virginia and to the West Indies to be sold as chattel. By the mid 17th century the majority of slaves on Antigua and Montserrat were Irish, indeed on Montserrat they accounted for 70% of the overall population. Between 1641 and 1652, a decade that ended with Cromwell’s total subjugation of Ireland, 500,000 Irish were killed and 300,000 sold into slavery, which nearly reduced the population by half.

The Irish slave trade resulted in populations of white workers living in the Caribbean and so is often confused with indentured servitude, in reality however the Irish were little more than human livestock. The slave trade out of western Africa was only beginning around this time, and it is reported that African slaves were treated better than the Irish. Seething anti-Catholic sentiment fuelled the abuse of the Irish, and Africans were ten times as expensive in the late 1600’s and an African slave would cost 50 Sterling while an Irish slave would cost 5. Soon planters began breeding Irish women and African men to produce a second generation of slaves with a distinctive appearance; these ‘Mulattos’ not only sold for a higher price but also reduced the cost of investing in new slaves out of Africa. This practice was outlawed in 1681 because it interfered so heavily with the profits of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

The descendants of the Irish slave populations became known by names such as ‘Red-legs’, or variations thereof, owing to the effects of the tropical sun on their fair skin. As generations passed many of them signed contracts of indenture themselves, but by the 18th century the Irish communities in the Caribbean had shrank considerably as many more had taken any opportunity that presented itself to emigrate elsewhere.
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Old 22 Nov 15, 14:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill shack View Post
A very interesting article, The white slaves were worth less than the African slaves, please read and give comments.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-iri...e-slaves/31076
Leaning a bit on the Irish penchant for victemhood. In reality there were white slaves from all over, quite a few of Monmouth's army after their defeat and capture at Sedgemoor went that way for example. There may have been a Scots dimension as it seems there was a trade from some Scots ports - often of 'truculent' highlanders which may also explain why a Stewart monarch might be keen on it. It was a sentence available to English courts until 1688

BTW I'm half Irish
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