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Warfare by Other Means Economics, demographics, cultural, technological, and other factors that have affected the course of history.

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  #31  
Old 29 Dec 14, 05:49
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Technically any cyber activity, unless it occasions or supports, the use or threat of use of VIOLENCE is not war. That's the (perhaps somewhat narrow, but necessarily so) Academic interpretation of it. (Unless you're some arse like Keegan or Van Crevald perhaps.)
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  #32  
Old 29 Dec 14, 10:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selous View Post
Technically any cyber activity, unless it occasions or supports, the use or threat of use of VIOLENCE is not war. That's the (perhaps somewhat narrow, but necessarily so) Academic interpretation of it. (Unless you're some arse like Keegan or Van Crevald perhaps.)
This is a very interesting post.

I don't see how I can agree with it, entirely.

Planebombing New York is a clear use of violence, and few people cared to call it crime.

But when the British blockaded food supplies to Germany in World War I, was that not a war effort at all? It was certainly not violent: it simply prevented ships from supplying food and other materiel to a given area.

However, we know it was war.

If cyber warriors mess with the software of the Route One Conowingo Dam in Maryland, is that war? It would be just changing some 0s and 1s -----

But it would drown two towns.

My personal fear for cyberattack is not electric systems or dams but the financial system, and no wonder after all the times I had to change out debit cards the last several years, as hackers got into everyone's accounts, including mine, and siphoned off money. Was that really Russian criminals, or was it ---- good practice?

Our financial system seems to be wide open. It is plain that everyone's financial identities lie open to the whole world, right now, as tens of millions of records are exposed weekly from the big-box merchants.

If a cyber attack stopped use of bank machines; scrambled designators for who owns what money; erased back-ups; deleted the entire transactions of the New York Stock Exchange; stopped money transit accounting between banks ------

Wouldn't that be war? I think it would be. It would be wholly non-violent.......

But it would still be war, I think.
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  #33  
Old 29 Dec 14, 11:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phebe View Post
This is a very interesting post.

I don't see how I can agree with it, entirely.

Planebombing New York is a clear use of violence, and few people cared to call it crime.

But when the British blockaded food supplies to Germany in World War I, was that not a war effort at all? It was certainly not violent: it simply prevented ships from supplying food and other materiel to a given area.

However, we know it was war.

If cyber warriors mess with the software of the Route One Conowingo Dam in Maryland, is that war? It would be just changing some 0s and 1s -----

But it would drown two towns.

My personal fear for cyberattack is not electric systems or dams but the financial system, and no wonder after all the times I had to change out debit cards the last several years, as hackers got into everyone's accounts, including mine, and siphoned off money. Was that really Russian criminals, or was it ---- good practice?

Our financial system seems to be wide open. It is plain that everyone's financial identities lie open to the whole world, right now, as tens of millions of records are exposed weekly from the big-box merchants.

If a cyber attack stopped use of bank machines; scrambled designators for who owns what money; erased back-ups; deleted the entire transactions of the New York Stock Exchange; stopped money transit accounting between banks ------

Wouldn't that be war? I think it would be. It would be wholly non-violent.......

But it would still be war, I think.
I agree that there are elements of our society, such as prolific use of electronic money records and transfer, that could be exploited to create mayhem. The ensuing mayhem and public panic (imagine all your money is suddenly gone but your weekly shop is due) could be similar to that caused by a nuke - hoarding, looting, widespread disorder. It would be cyber war in my book, if I had written one.
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  #34  
Old 29 Dec 14, 13:10
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Check yer Clausewitz; war is very particular activity with certain ends and means. That doesn't rule out a cyber dimension of war but it does get rid of a lot of the fluff we label cyberwar as mere adjuncts of warfare, or supporting actions. Is logistics war? nope, neither is technological advancement, or many economic activities, but those same activities may be employed in war time for the purposes of the war.
The Lonsdale book suggested earlier tackles this best I'll see if I can get something down here later (I'm back in digs tomorrow)
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  #35  
Old 29 Dec 14, 13:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selous View Post
Check yer Clausewitz; war is very particular activity with certain ends and means. That doesn't rule out a cyber dimension of war but it does get rid of a lot of the fluff we label cyberwar as mere adjuncts of warfare, or supporting actions. Is logistics war? nope, neither is technological advancement, or many economic activities, but those same activities may be employed in war time for the purposes of the war.
The Lonsdale book suggested earlier tackles this best I'll see if I can get something down here later (I'm back in digs tomorrow)
Are you an academic Selous? There could be a paper in this for you.
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  #36  
Old 29 Dec 14, 13:24
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I am, E2V; but my Supervisor sort of allready did it : http://books.google.co.uk/books/abou...d=YbY4dvyuf5EC
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  #37  
Old 31 Dec 14, 20:42
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While the financial system would make an inviting target for a politically motivated attack, the ceaseless criminal assault against anything and everything involving money results in those targets being harder simply as a matter of everyday survival.

People generally bring up infrastructure targets as these have been some of the last major industrial components to be automated and they offer few opportunities for conventional crime. There is relatively less experience in this sector in either systematic hardening or post attack forensics.
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Old 02 Jan 15, 10:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
While the financial system would make an inviting target for a politically motivated attack, the ceaseless criminal assault against anything and everything involving money results in those targets being harder simply as a matter of everyday survival.

People generally bring up infrastructure targets as these have been some of the last major industrial components to be automated and they offer few opportunities for conventional crime. There is relatively less experience in this sector in either systematic hardening or post attack forensics.
I agree that the attractiveness of financial markets to criminals make them as well protected as we possibly can. However I note that banks have the ability to crash systems through their own incompetence from time to time and so perhaps a group of truly gifted and inspired hackers could one day achieve something terrible in this space, a financial 9/11. One of those low probability high impact events that hopefully we never see but we might.
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  #39  
Old 02 Jan 15, 10:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
I agree that the attractiveness of financial markets to criminals make them as well protected as we possibly can. However I note that banks have the ability to crash systems through their own incompetence from time to time and so perhaps a group of truly gifted and inspired hackers could one day achieve something terrible in this space, a financial 9/11. One of those low probability high impact events that hopefully we never see but we might.
And it might not even be warfare:

It might be for fun.
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  #40  
Old 04 Jan 15, 10:41
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FBI Probing 'Revenge Hacks' By Banks on Cyber Attackers

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2474406,00.asp

Since we are still on the financial aspect I thought this might be interesting.
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  #41  
Old 04 Jan 15, 10:52
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Like these guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phebe View Post
And it might not even be warfare:

It might be for fun.
Lizard Squad Offers $6 DDoS Attack Tool

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2474386,00.asp
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  #42  
Old 04 Jan 15, 17:51
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Lizard Squad Offers $6 DDoS Attack Tool

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2474386,00.asp
Yeah. Whenever my computer slows I worry I've been captured into a botnet and am attacking some country's government or banks without knowing it.
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Old 04 Jan 15, 20:02
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I worry I've downloaded too many games on Steam.
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  #44  
Old 07 Jan 15, 12:32
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Reuters 1/7:

Quote:
Sony attack extremely serious: U.S.

NEW YORK - Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said the recent cyber attack against Sony Pictures, which Washington has blamed on North Korea, is the most serious such attack ever against U.S. interests.

Interesting.

I would have thought some of the big crime (or terrorist or international) attacks on our banks and big-box stores were more serious than this Sony attack.

But it does appear to have knocked out a LOT of Sony computers, so that may be an infrastructure destruction attack that is different in kind. I think there will be more of this sort of thing from "Nork" and that a bump-up in our cyber-defense budget is warranted.
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Old 11 Jan 15, 19:20
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Hi

Maybe of interest in relation to this discussion:-

Quote:
US General Dempsey: The US's Military Superiority Does Not Carry Over To Cyberwarfare....In a taped interview aired Sunday on Fox News, Dempsey was asked whether the U.S. was vulnerable to a "cyber Pearl Harbor." Dempsey notes such attacks could disable critical infrastructure and are incredibly disruptive....Dempsey said the U.S. has peer competitors in cyberwarfare. He goes so far as to call it a level playing field, which makes him very uncomfortable.
Read more: http://uk.businessinsider.com/us-gen...#ixzz3OYtu7gA4

Regards

Andy H
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