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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion

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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #46  
Old 26 Jun 15, 10:20
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BBC Full Article

Okay, this one caught me by surprise and made me laugh.
Don't forget the Romans in Rio . Actually its possible .

http://eglewis.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0...-americas.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/10/wo...man-visit.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/25/sc...in-brazil.html

Cocaine mummies?
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm
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  #47  
Old 26 Jun 15, 10:48
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No one ever found where the Phoenecians were getting their furs from. It was found that on the North American Coast you could trade with the locals for furs. They would leave them at a prominent site on the beach and Europeans would leave behind trade goods in exchange. I also believe that the Phoenecians also knew about the Fishing Grounds on the Grand Banks. The North American tribes would sail to Sable Island, St Pierre and Miquelon Islands to dry the catch. Bretons also sailed here before Columbus.

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  #48  
Old 26 Jun 15, 12:36
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One of the great barriers to the ancients was scurvy. If they had to do long voyages in one hop especially in their slowish ships this would be a major problem (and was well into the 18th century - read about Anson's circumnavigation). The Phonecians got round Africa going ashore for fresh supplies at intervals and the great Chinese fleets also did things in stages. One could say that the British Empire owed its existence to Mr Rose and his Lime Cordial factory in St Albans which made long scurvy free voyages possible. Trade routes in the Ancient world traded goods from intermediary to intermediary over incredible distances (Semi precious stones from China turning up on Bronze age British sites for example). Furs from North America could well have been traded via Greenland, Iceland, Scandinavia, Western Europe etc before ever being seen by a Phoneician but don't forget that Northern Britain once had many more fur producing animals than modern times (Wolves, Bears, Beavers, Ermine etc and the Phonecians bought tin from Britain.
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  #49  
Old 26 Jun 15, 16:17
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Jews and Christians found god before the Muslims, say the rest of the world!

Paul
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  #50  
Old 26 Jun 15, 16:55
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Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Jews and Christians found god before the Muslims, say the rest of the world!

Paul
No actually they don't, The Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Zoroastrians etc don't and the peoples of the Middle East before Mohammed were not atheists
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  #51  
Old 26 Jun 15, 20:01
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......and the peoples of the Middle East before Mohammed were not atheists
The Kaaba predates Islam for starters.....
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  #52  
Old 26 Jun 15, 20:08
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It is hard to believe for some people that Mecca and Medina used to have large Christian and Jewish communities.

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  #53  
Old 26 Jun 15, 21:29
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It is hard to believe for some people that Mecca and Medina used to have large Christian and Jewish communities.

Pruitt
From what I remember they had a very syncretic mix of religions before Islam came, with lots of tribal beliefs seeping into everything in a way that made their Christianity and Judaism removed from what you would find within the borders of the Eastern Roman Empire.
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  #54  
Old 27 Jun 15, 05:49
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It is hard to believe for some people that Mecca and Medina used to have large Christian and Jewish communities.

Pruitt
There still are significant Jewish communities in the North of Saudi, the Saudis just tend not to talk about them.
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Old 27 Jun 15, 08:10
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There still are significant Jewish communities in the North of Saudi, the Saudis just tend not to talk about them.
The 'invisibility' of indigenous Jewish and other communities is more of a result of Gemal Abdel Nasser's Pan-Arab fascism (oops! 'Nationalism') than any other factor save Wahabi nonsense. Prophet Mohammed was very direct in saying that Jews and Christians were 'people of the book.' Caliph Omar strictly followed that line too.
As always, many who came later, conveniently sacrificed creed on the altar of politics and self-interest. We all know that many people have chosen to 'be more Catholic than the Pope.....'
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Old 28 Jun 15, 10:40
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In 1214 the Arabic Geographer Ibn Said wrote about a trade in falcons and white bear furs which reached Egypt from "The Island of White Falcons" which, by his description appears to have been Greenland (where there was a Viking colony) via a chain of traders in Scandinavia and Byzantium. These were definitely in the category of hyper luxury goods and a white falcon cost 1,000 dinars. Icelandic documents from about the same period talk about encounters with peoples from beyond Greenland - somewhere called Nyland.
It has been surmised that these were people of the North American Thule culture who were capable of long sea voyages (and made maps). James Robert Enterline has argued in his book Erikson, Eskimos, and Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America that through such contacts Europeans were well aware that there was something out there and that this is the origin of various pre Columbus maps which show land to the West of Greenland. Photos included in the book. If the trade in Greenland produced goods to the Islamic world lay through Byzantium AKA Constantinople AKA Istanbul then it would be very possible that the Ottomans had maps showing America - doesn't mean that they discovered it though.
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Old 28 Jun 15, 15:53
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In 1214 the Arabic Geographer Ibn Said wrote about a trade in falcons and white bear furs which reached Egypt from "The Island of White Falcons" which, by his description appears to have been Greenland (where there was a Viking colony) via a chain of traders in Scandinavia and Byzantium. These were definitely in the category of hyper luxury goods and a white falcon cost 1,000 dinars. Icelandic documents from about the same period talk about encounters with peoples from beyond Greenland - somewhere called Nyland.
It has been surmised that these were people of the North American Thule culture who were capable of long sea voyages (and made maps). James Robert Enterline has argued in his book Erikson, Eskimos, and Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America that through such contacts Europeans were well aware that there was something out there and that this is the origin of various pre Columbus maps which show land to the West of Greenland. Photos included in the book. If the trade in Greenland produced goods to the Islamic world lay through Byzantium AKA Constantinople AKA Istanbul then it would be very possible that the Ottomans had maps showing America - doesn't mean that they discovered it though.
World Trade as it were is, nothing new. Dilmun man 5,000 years ago was doing quite well as a middl-man between copper from Magan (UAE/Oman) and Ubaid pottery from Mesopotamia. Later again the Gulf was busy as a trade route, for spices to Rome and quite possibly liquamen that the Roman kitchen used in prodigious quantities.

Of course, as MarkV points out, trading with, being aware of, map making and discovery are all quite distinctly different things.
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Old 28 Jun 15, 16:23
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World Trade as it were is, nothing new. Dilmun man 5,000 years ago was doing quite well as a middl-man between copper from Magan (UAE/Oman) and Ubaid pottery from Mesopotamia. Later again the Gulf was busy as a trade route, for spices to Rome and quite possibly liquamen that the Roman kitchen used in prodigious quantities.

Of course, as MarkV points out, trading with, being aware of, map making and discovery are all quite distinctly different things.
Indeed some of these traders are very old - in the late 90s I visited the Saudi Gold Mine just North enough of Medina to allow me to do so. According to archaeologists it has been producing gold for about 4,000 years or more and still produces the richest and most pure ore in the world (just not in huge quantiles). I have a piece of said ore - it probably contains about 2 pence worth of gold. Apparently isotopic analysis (not my field) shows that it supplied King Solomon (eat your heart out Haggard I've actually been in King Solomon's mines). Now it supplies the Swedish dental trade! A bit (or should that be bite) less romantic! Bahrain (Dilmun) was once a major wine producer for the ancient world something that in today's climate tends not to get mentioned. [It was also once, a bit later, a nest of pirates which also doesn't get mentioned]
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Old 29 Jun 15, 18:09
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Indeed some of these traders are very old - in the late 90s I visited the Saudi Gold Mine just North enough of Medina to allow me to do so. According to archaeologists it has been producing gold for about 4,000 years or more and still produces the richest and most pure ore in the world (just not in huge quantiles). I have a piece of said ore - it probably contains about 2 pence worth of gold. Apparently isotopic analysis (not my field) shows that it supplied King Solomon (eat your heart out Haggard I've actually been in King Solomon's mines). Now it supplies the Swedish dental trade! A bit (or should that be bite) less romantic! Bahrain (Dilmun) was once a major wine producer for the ancient world something that in today's climate tends not to get mentioned. [It was also once, a bit later, a nest of pirates which also doesn't get mentioned]
Wine from Bahrain... well, not surprising really as 5,000 years ago the North Kuwaiti coast was much milder and wetter than it is today as the report on the H3 site by Harriet Crawford and Robert Carter et al. discovered. Mark Beech, the paeobiologist in the august crowd pinpointed a number of animal remains that supported what ancient Kuwaiti man - and family were eating. No refrigeration from Argentina then. Considering that the prevailing NE winds may not have changed that much it would explain serpantine stone structures in the area that may well have been to construct animal shelters. What we know is that these coastal settlements were summer-season habitats (we know from otoliths from fish bones that correlate that).

While it has been my great privilage to handle many high-value artefacts, to touch (I photographed many of the H3 objects, published by Harvard UP) a link with 5,000 years ago was quite a link with the distant past, arrow heads, an obsidian axe-head, a model boat! (nothing new under the sun), maybe a game, and Ye Olde Debonsifier, a pretty effective mace that could have spoilt an entire afternoon if struck by it. That is apart from various pieces of 'Ubaid pottery.

So, MarkV, you were a bit North of the Hejaz. Did you see anything of the Ottoman Railway? Not that it would have helped Sulayman/Soloman to get to Bilqīs, the Queen of Sabah....
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Old 29 Jun 15, 20:30
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There are some who believe the Chinese were the first to discover America.
No ... it was the Welsh.

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