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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #61  
Old 08 Sep 14, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
If you remove the air support (as in Yelnia, Tikhvin, Tula, etc,), some divisions performed better than German divisions.
So some performed better than the German divisions which they were supposedly immeasurably superior to? And this is supposed to be an argument in your favour?

Don't forget that the Red Army in this 1940 hasn't had a chance to learn the bloody lessons of the Winter War, meaning that it'll be significantly less effective and rather smaller than the Red Army of 1941.
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  #62  
Old 08 Sep 14, 13:09
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On 22 june 1941, AGS had 728 tanks, I am still waiting for the proof that on 29 june,AGS had lost 182 tanks,and that this happened in tank battles .
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  #63  
Old 08 Sep 14, 13:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
You do grasp the fact that Vajda & Dancey's figures are for aircraft production, not aircraft availability, don't you?

From these figures, you might consider deducting combat losses, and Ju87s not allocated to 'Barbarossa,' before claiming them to be 'clearly wrong.'

In any case, your original statement said :-

Ironically Germany is the one who cannot afford to provide Stukas for its allies, since it produced a ridiculous 120 in the 2nd half od 1940 and 1st half of 1941

I have provided figures from a reputable source: Time for you to tell us the source which was the basis for your remarkable claim.
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  #64  
Old 08 Sep 14, 13:25
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Let's imagine a Politbureau meeting on 20 may 1940:after 4 hours ,the secretary of JV said : point 99 of the agenda : a proposal by comrade Draco Dracovitch.

JV : comrade DD : we are all ears .

Comrade DD : should we not attack Germany,and invade the Balkans,Turkey and Iran? Our armies could advance through Germany to Strasbourg.Meanwhile, with the help of fascist Italy,we could invade capitalist Switserland .

No reaction,every one remained silent,till JV took the floor :with a worried voice (JV always was worried about the health of his collaborators) he said : "comrade DD,it is obvious that we have asked to much of you : a long holiday ( at the cost of the state) is necessary ;maybe Kolyma ? there is a lot of fresh air in Kolyma and a lot of opportunities to do some physical exercises;don't forget to take warm clothes,because it is cold in Kolyma.Be ready at 3 AM,because it's a long way from Moscow .
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  #65  
Old 08 Sep 14, 14:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
If you remove the air support (as in Yelnia, Tikhvin, Tula, etc,), some divisions performed better than German divisions.
Name them. The ones you name, like Tikhvin and Tula take place in November and are against rather sparse German forces that are over-extended and making one last push to take objectives.

Let's look at a couple of Soviet tank divisions on 22 June and see where the Red Army was on the outbreak of the conflict. Those divisions should be at their peak of readiness right? After all, the Russians know war is coming and are mobilized for it.

Both are in the Western Military District in Poland. This is the strongest forces and usually the best equipped the Soviets have so I'm picking two of their better / best tank units.

The first is the 10th Tank Division commanded by Lt. Col. Sukhoruchkin. He reported his division "The material support of the division as well as the shortages of auto transport in carry-weight and specialized vehicles lowered somewhat the combat effectiveness of the division."
The 10th had 355 tanks (mostly BT 7 and some T 26 with a few T34 and a couple of KV's) of which 310 were reported serviceable on 22 June. In three weeks of action against the Germans the division lost 307 tanks, 151 to maintenance issues and the rest to ground combat. The Luftwaffe had a negligible effect on its operations.
It was a lack of support vehicles, equipment, spare parts, ammunition, and inadequately trained personnel... particularly technical service personnel... that doomed the division.

Next we'll look at the 37th Tank Division, also in the Western Military District, Colonel Anikushkin commanding. On 22 June it's situation was:

Officers 41.2%
NCO's and warrant officers 48.3%
Enlisted men 111.0%

So on paper it was numerically very close to full strength until you break the numbers down. Then it was badly understrength in leadership and skilled personnel.
It's tank strength was:

1 KV (1.6% of authorized)
34 T 34 (11.6% of authorized)
258 BT 7 (no longer on establishment)
22 T 26 (not on establishment)
1 OT 26 flamethrower tank

It had 56% of the 122mm howitzers and 33.3% of the 152mm Howitzers it was supposed to have.

The motorized rifle regiment had a shortage of over 600 rifles so many men were unarmed. The regiment also had no motor vehicles assigned, 60% of its men were recent draftees without more than partial basic training. The regiment was also located 150 km to the rear of the tank regiments.
The division engineer battalion was at the Dnepr practicing pontoon bridging.

When alerted for movement to the front and into combat the division had 70% of its manpower, 315 tanks 1 122mm howitzer and 1 152mm howitzer, and 4 37mm AA guns.
Colonel Anikushkin reported "...the division considers itself to be a stable combat entity... and can successfully resolve all missions assigned to it."

After a major engagement at Dubno (no air attacks on it) the division on 15 July in three weeks of action the division had just 2,423 personnel (having started with over 10,000), 1 T 34 and 5 BT 7 tanks, 2 122mm howitzers, 1 76mm gun and 16 45mm antitank guns.

It got ground to nothing against the Germans due to it's poor logistical state, inability to conduct combined arms, lack of leadership, poor state of training, and lack of support services and equipment.

These examples are not unusual. They are typical. The Rifle divisions were usually in far worse shape than the mechanized ones that got priority on equipment and manpower.
The Red Army had expanded very rapidly in the last few years supply couldn't keep up with material demand. Thus almost every unit in the Red Army was short of everything.
Worse, manpower issues were such that most units rank's were filled with poorly trained troops, the purge created an officer shortage as well as a qualified officer shortage, and also resulted in serious morale issues.
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  #66  
Old 08 Sep 14, 14:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
Let's imagine a Politbureau meeting on 20 may 1940:after 4 hours ,the secretary of JV said : point 99 of the agenda : a proposal by comrade Draco Dracovitch.

JV : comrade DD : we are all ears .

Comrade DD : should we not attack Germany,and invade the Balkans,Turkey and Iran? Our armies could advance through Germany to Strasbourg.Meanwhile, with the help of fascist Italy,we could invade capitalist Switserland .

No reaction,every one remained silent,till JV took the floor :with a worried voice (JV always was worried about the health of his collaborators) he said : "comrade DD,it is obvious that we have asked to much of you : a long holiday ( at the cost of the state) is necessary ;maybe Kolyma ? there is a lot of fresh air in Kolyma and a lot of opportunities to do some physical exercises;don't forget to take warm clothes,because it is cold in Kolyma.Be ready at 3 AM,because it's a long way from Moscow .

The Poliburo was a sham, most of its members being executed and replaced by Stalin at will. It was not consulted about the Ribbentrop-Molotov or any other decision taken by Stalin in minutes.

Besides, Switzerland is captured before the iron ore mines are, bypassing the Maginot (Strassburg). Of course some of You will argue that it is impossible for Italy and the Soviets to invade tiny Switzerland from Bohemia and Italy. After all they're Untermenschen, like the Chinese who simply could not build planes. Italy had over a million men, the USSR over 4, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Bohemia and Bulgaria another million, but the WM has Triumph des Willens and 2.8 million übermenschen, so it doesn't need fuel, munitions, armament, steel, etc, to hold back the hordes.
Colima is a warm state in Mexico.

TAG

Soviet subs did quite well in the Baltic and Black Sea. Turkish ships smuggling chromite, etc, were often sunk. They were not intended to sink warships, just vulnerable freighters and transports, like the largest marine disaster in history. Operating from Poland in coordination with planes from day 1, they would have been a pain in the neck.

Guderian's forces in Yelnia were quite strong, but without air support they couldn't do anything, ran out of fuel and ammo and were anihilated because Hitler refused to allow them to withdraw, it was one of the first encounters with eastern troops. That happens when you advance over a 2,800 km front with a lot of men but a ridiculous number of planes, cannon, tanks, MGs, mortars, trucks, etc,
The Myth of the modern WM is the result of German propaganda films, in fact the WM had more horses than trucks (most of which were captured from France, Britian, Belgium, Holland, etc, so they had few or no spares), a very poorly equipped mass of troops advancing mostly on foot and using WW I bolt action rifles and very few and inferior tanks. Most importantly the ridiculously few planes could provide only sporadic support over the huge front and Hitler stupidly sent hundreds to bomb Moscow, losing quite a few to unexpectedly strong AAA.

In contrast, the allies will concentrate huge forces (the artillery and air force alone are shoking) on a much smaller front, which is much easier to supply and reinforce. The masses of German refugees will crowd the roads.

One country I had neglected is Spain, which is starving and deprived of oil.
In September Stalin and Churchill offer Franco oil and grain in exchange for the whole production of tungsten, mercury, armament, etc, depriving Germany of these resources.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Sep 14 at 14:52..
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  #67  
Old 08 Sep 14, 14:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Nope, your calculator is also numerically challenged. It's 865 or 7.2 times more than I wrote. Which is clearly wrong, since total production between 1936 and 1944 was 6,500 with the highest production in 1942and Hitler had under 300 Stukas available for the beginning of Barbarossa on June 22, 1941.
Another correction :-

Despite what Wikipaedia might say, most serious sources give the total production figure for the Ju87 as just over 5700.

Production actually peaked in 1943, not 1942. The figure for 1943 is between 1600 & 1800, depending on sources, whilst that for 1942 is just under 1000, and for 1944 just over 1000.

You must have got your mysterious figure of 120 from somewhere. Why haven't you got the integrity to tell us where? After all, you might be correct, and it might be true that between mid 1940 and mid 1941 the Luftwaffe really was receiving new Ju87s at a rate of ten per month.
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  #68  
Old 08 Sep 14, 14:53
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In june 1941,the Soviet forces stationed in European Russia had fuel for a week,as there is no reason that in 1940 they would have more fuel,we can assume that Draco is claiming that the Red Army would be at Strasbourg in one week .
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  #69  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Myth of the modern WM is the result of German propaganda films, in fact the WM had more horses than trucks (most of which were captured from France, Britian, Belgium, Holland, etc, so they had few or no spares), a very poorly equipped mass of troops advancing mostly on foot and using WW I bolt action rifles and very few and inferior tanks. Most importantly the ridiculously few planes could provide only sporadic support over the huge front and Hitler stupidly sent hundreds to bomb Moscow, losing quite a few to unexpectedly strong AAA.
.
Pulling just one nugget of false information out of this mess of inaccuracy is hard. So I looked at just the one highlighted 'fact'.
The Karabiner 98k was the standard German bolt action rifle of World War Two. It was designed in 1935. Where I come from, World War One had been over awhile by 1935.
Who knew it wasn't?

Secret undiscovered historical fact or worthless made up evidence?



Last edited by CarpeDiem; 08 Sep 14 at 15:27..
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  #70  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:11
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Assuming 1,700 for 1943, 1,000 for 1944 and 1,000 for 1942, that makes 3,700 out of 5,700, which leaves 2,000 between 1936 and 1941.

If a lot of planes were produced in time but did not take in part in the initial stage of Barbarossa, that contributed considerably to its failure, for insuficient air support and failure to sink the fleets on the first days cost heavy losses.

I do not keep track of what I read years ago.
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Old 08 Sep 14, 15:25
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Originally Posted by CarpeDiem View Post
Pulling just one nugget of false information out of this mess of inaccuracy is hard. So I looked at just the one highlighted 'fact'.
The Karbiner 98k was the standard German bolt action rifle of World War Two. It was designed in 1935. Where I come from, World War One had been over awhile by 1935.
Who knew it wasn't?

Secret undiscovered historical fact or worthless made up evidence?



Yes, a complete redesign, with the same cartridge, capacity and bolt action. A WW I soldier would not have begun to understand how to operate it. At least the British WW I bolt action rifle had a 10 round capacity. The Germans didn't learn from the Mons massacre in 1914. The Soviet untermenschen were waiting for them with PPSh 40 sub MGs which could empty 70 rounds in a fraction of a second, which many Germans promptly adopted.
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  #72  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:29
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Are you a masochist? You must be to continually say such uninformed things and get beaten over the head for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
TAG

Soviet subs did quite well in the Baltic and Black Sea. Turkish ships smuggling chromite, etc, were often sunk. They were not intended to sink warships, just vulnerable freighters and transports, like the largest marine disaster in history. Operating from Poland in coordination with planes from day 1, they would have been a pain in the neck.
Right... Sure. The Soviets had 44 submarines in the Black Sea and 69 in the Baltic on 22 June 1941 (You want a complete list of which ones? I have it).

In 1941 in the Baltic those 69 submarines claimed sunk 73 merchant ships for 50,385 tons. Checked against Western figures of losses they actually sank 3 merchant ships for 4, 489 tons one of which was refloated and repaired.

In 1942 they claimed 53 merchants for 126,333 tons sunk one torpedo boat and one patrol craft. They actually sank 19 ships 40,146 tons including at least 3 Swedish merchant ships.

In the Black Sea the 44 subs claimed 5 merchants for 17,886 tons. They actually sank 3 merchants and 3 Turkish merchant ships for 15,098 tons in 1941.

In 1942 they claimed 17 merchants for 28,350 tons, one tug, one lighter, three landing craft. They actually sank 13 merchants for 12, 226 tons including 8 that were Turkish along with two Turkish tugs.

Overall, the Soviet submarine service sank 108 ships totaling 254,525 tons along with 28 minor and auxiliary warships for the loss of 112 submarines during the entire war counting all fleets.

see: Soviet Warships of the Second World War Jürg Meister p 172 to 174

That record puts total lie to your claim.

Quote:
Guderian's forces in Yelnia were quite strong, but without air support they couldn't do anything, ran out of fuel and ammo and were anihilated because Hitler refused to allow them to withdraw, it was one of the first encounters with eastern troops. That happens when you advance over a 2,800 km front with a lot of men but a ridiculous number of planes, cannon, tanks, MGs, mortars, trucks, etc,
The Myth of the modern WM is the result of German propaganda films, in fact the WM had more horses than trucks (most of which were captured from France, Britian, Belgium, Holland, etc, so they had few or no spares), a very poorly equipped mass of troops advancing mostly on foot and using WW I bolt action rifles and very few and inferior tanks. Most importantly the ridiculously few planes could provide only sporadic support over the huge front and Hitler stupidly sent hundreds to bomb Moscow, losing quite a few to unexpectedly strong AAA.
Maybe you should read a few detailed accounts of Operation Typhoon 11/15/41 to 12/5/41 before posting up drivel like the above.
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  #73  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:30
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Attack Switzerland you say...

Of course you have a plan to do so.

Tell us about this plan...
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  #74  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Yes, a complete redesign, with the same cartridge, capacity and bolt action. A WW I soldier would not have begun to understand how to operate it. At least the British WW I bolt action rifle had a 10 round capacity. The Germans didn't learn from the Mons massacre in 1914. The Soviet untermenschen were waiting for them with PPSh 40 sub MGs which could empty 70 rounds in a fraction of a second, which many Germans promptly adopted.
You know nothing about German squad tactics obviously from the above. So, it amounts to more drivel.
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  #75  
Old 08 Sep 14, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Poliburo was a sham, most of its members being executed and replaced by Stalin at will. It was not consulted about the Ribbentrop-Molotov or any other decision taken by Stalin in minutes.

Besides, Switzerland is captured before the iron ore mines are, bypassing the Maginot (Strassburg). Of course some of You will argue that it is impossible for Italy and the Soviets to invade tiny Switzerland from Bohemia and Italy. After all they're Untermenschen, like the Chinese who simply could not build planes. Italy had over a million men, the USSR over 4, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Bohemia and Bulgaria another million, but the WM has Triumph des Willens and 2.8 million übermenschen, so it doesn't need fuel, munitions, armament, steel, etc, to hold back the hordes.
Colima is a warm state in Mexico.

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Soviet subs did quite well in the Baltic and Black Sea. Turkish ships smuggling chromite, etc, were often sunk. They were not intended to sink warships, just vulnerable freighters and transports, like the largest marine disaster in history. Operating from Poland in coordination with planes from day 1, they would have been a pain in the neck.

Guderian's forces in Yelnia were quite strong, but without air support they couldn't do anything, ran out of fuel and ammo and were anihilated because Hitler refused to allow them to withdraw, it was one of the first encounters with eastern troops. That happens when you advance over a 2,800 km front with a lot of men but a ridiculous number of planes, cannon, tanks, MGs, mortars, trucks, etc,
The Myth of the modern WM is the result of German propaganda films, in fact the WM had more horses than trucks (most of which were captured from France, Britian, Belgium, Holland, etc, so they had few or no spares), a very poorly equipped mass of troops advancing mostly on foot and using WW I bolt action rifles and very few and inferior tanks. Most importantly the ridiculously few planes could provide only sporadic support over the huge front and Hitler stupidly sent hundreds to bomb Moscow, losing quite a few to unexpectedly strong AAA.

In contrast, the allies will concentrate huge forces (the artillery and air force alone are shoking) on a much smaller front, which is much easier to supply and reinforce. The masses of German refugees will crowd the roads.

One country I had neglected is Spain, which is starving and deprived of oil.
In September Stalin and Churchill offer Franco oil and grain in exchange for the whole production of tungsten, mercury, armament, etc, depriving Germany of these resources.

I found this on another, highly reputable, site. I haven't checked the details myself, but am confident that the author would have been taken to task had he made any significant errors.

Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII



Use of Soviet submarines during WWII [according to statistics from 2004]

Soviet submarines sank by torpedoes and artillery fire:

I. Pacific Ocean fleet - 4 enemy ships [Japanese] were sunk by submarines in 1945: 2 small steamers, 1 cable vessel and 1 seine-netter.

5 Soviet submarines were lost in Pacific during WWII.


II. North fleet

35 enemy ships [German] were sunk in 1941-1944: 20 transports, 7 anti-submarine boats, 5 auxiliary patrol ships, 1 submarine, 1 mine-sweeper, 1 auxiliary ship. In addition 4 transports [19390 brt] were seriously damaged.

The most successful year - 1943 [15 ships were sunk].

23 Soviet submarines were lost in Arctic during WWII. The worst year - also 1943 [10 losses].

III. Black Sea fleet

45 ships [18 German, 2 Italian, 6 Romanian, 3 Bulgarian, 16 neutral Turkish] were sank in 1941-1944: 43 transports + tankers + landing barges. The most successful year - 1943 [17 ships were sunk].

28 Soviet submarines were lost in Black Sea during WWII.

The worst year - 1942 [13 submarines were lost].

IV. Baltic Sea fleet

48 ships [17 German, 7 Finnish, 1 Danish, 2 Dutch, 11 Norwegian, 10 neutral Swedish] were sank in 1941-1945: 1 submarine, 1 mine-sweeper, 1 patrol ship, 1 training ship, 1 depot ship, 2 tankers, 1 tug, 1 barge, 37 transports, 2 seine-netters.

The most successful year - 1942 [22 ships were sank]

45 Soviet submarines were lost in Baltic during WWII.

The worst year - 1941 [27 submarines were lost].

The success of Soviet submarines was mediocre - The USSR used 277 submarines during WWII [165 submarines were in service in 1939 - the largest world's submarine fleet].


I suppose it all depends on how you interpret the phrase did quite well

I would not consider any of the above figures to represent an acceptable rate of return, but there again perhaps I lack the OPs intuitive grasp of strategy.
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